MabiPro: The Authentic Old-School Mabinogi Experience

mabinogi and i have had a long, arduous relationship. though i no longer play, i still appeciate the game, it's players, the art style, the sense of community. but what is the game, without it's community? since the very beginning of mabipro, the gms seem to feel the need to insert themselves into community drama. now, i have argued these points of mine at length with drahan and whoever would listen. before anyone says i'm rallying for toxicity - i'm not! i don't believe anyone should be toxic, but i'm an american, and i also believe in freedom of speech. my friends are what you would call "trolls" and while i am, of course, biased on their side of the court, i don't tend to participate in their shenanigans.

these are the behaviors i believe should be punishable: cheating, doxing, blacklist bypassing, death threats.

if someone isn't doing one of these things ( with room for suggestion of course, such as for spamming, scamming, those kinds of things ) i believe people should have total freedom to say whatever they want without repercussion. mabinogi wasn't like mabipro, with people of all kinds, friendly, rude, toxic, creeps- and while they were never punished by nexon, they also served to create the large, diverse community of live mabi.

there is NO benefit to this overmoderation. the mabipro community has slowly dwindled down to only the most sensitive voices and most dedicated players. there is no more pvp, there is no more competition, people are just expected to be kind or face consequences. what does this leave us with? stressed out gms who don't even want to face the issue, the issue they've created for themselves. reporting someone on nexon mabi for saying something you deem offensive, you would be told to ' USE THE BLACKLIST. ' the blacklist, a feature long forgotten and ignored by the gms of mabipro in favor of micromanaging their community. why? by not blacklisting someone, you are opting into being offended. and then to turn around and report that same person who offended you? childish. petty. in an adult world, words should not be harming you. a person irl could say whatever they want to your face without repercussion. the need to punish anyone who says something out of line is absolutely juvenile and has slowly killed the game over time.

how many people have quit over this? sure, they might not be people you like, but they were still people, populating dunbarton, populating the NOW EMPTY game. now, the place is deserted, with the people who left poking their head in intermittently just to see what a sad state the server is in. i am telling you with utmost sincerity, overmoderation is the biggest issue. my suggestion is to drop this "pernicious behavior" clause, let people do and say what they want, of course, within reason! nobody should be ruining anyone else's game experience - that's why the blacklist EXISTS, to remove these troublesome people from your experience. that should NOT be up to gms, of course, unless it is bypassed.

but a year and a half and the same argument ten times later, i feel like i'm talking to air. even though it "stresses them out" so very much, like the very same people who opt into being offended by not blacklisting someone offending their sensitive ideologies, the gms opt into this stress by their insistent micromanaging of the community. it is not and has never been necessary. i don't even play this game anymore for - basically - the same reasons listed above, but i'd love to see it thrive, but i'm certain it can't if things remain the way they are currently. do the gms even want the server to thrive, or do they want their own closed community, at which they are the heads of? certainly, it can't be enjoyable getting on a game with ~60 people online at any given time.

yes, this is a free service, and people appreciate that. yes, you own it, you can do whatever you want, but is this really how you want it to be? i bet drahan doesn't even enjoy running the server anymore, but keeps it up out of obligation to the people who donated. let there be change. if it isn't already too late, some people may return.

sorry if this is real long-winded wow i have no life!!!! edited for some words.

For what is worth, there was a GM meeting yesterday regarding how moderation works.

Changes are coming, for all of us.
      

thanks for that! i only hope they're changes everyone can agree with.

Regardless of what my opinion about this issue is, because i dont join discord nor partake in global chat a few things need to be understood here, by anyone on either side of this argument

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences. On top of that , the amendment specifically states that congress can make no law to censor. The freedom of speech is to prevent a tyrannical government, what you say and do in a private setting is not free of consequences

I'm a teacher, i cannot use profanity while im having my lectures, its not free of consequences, i will be censored in the means of possibly being fired if not reprimanded heavily through a warning or a write-up

In the adult world what you say and do has an effect on people. What you say or do has consequences and freedom of speech does not relieve you of that consequence. Joe's Pizza cannot just go around telling people that Joseph's pizza uses rat meat in their italian sausages.

In that regard, the GM body can ban or suspend anyone they want if the people in question are saying anything the GMs or owner believe does not befit the server climate that they want to run. You can convince them that its unwise to do so but you cant be throwing around the 1st ammendment as one of the reasons


Again, I repeat, I have no stake in this. But I just dislike it when people misunderstand the meaning of the 1st Amendment, especially today its Constitution Day

If I may just address this...in most of the adult world, talking the way most people do ingame would result in arrest, bodily harm or worse. Not everyone is made of stone - hell, one source of of the this came from people misinterpreting another as speaking condescendingly, after all! :p

While I do feel that some people (myself included) need to try to shrug things off a bit more, I don't think blacklist can or should be used as an excuse for people to act however they want. While people would be expected to receive messages in a mature manner, the same could be said of the people giving the same message. Don't get mad over petty jabs, but also don't spew bile just because one seemingly can, you know?

I don't even really know what this is all about, but if you don't mind me saying. The way everyone is talking just seems to paint things in an extreme manner regardless of what stance you're taking.

well i will not comment on my stance about the issue

But yes, im extremely against people misusing freedom of speech as a defense.

About this overmoderation issue though, nothing extreme taken on my part

Preach Auburn!

maybe freedom of speech wasn't the best argument i could've made - yes, of course things have consequences in the real world, such as being arrested, being beat up, etc, but this isn't the real world, nor is it the same "oldschool mabinogi experience" that this server advertises itself as. it is not the same experience i nor any of my friends had on live mabi, where we were free to like and dislike anyone as vocally as we wanted to. do i agree that people should be toxic? no, i'm a friendly person! but i think people should be allowed to say whatever they please, sans doxing and death threats bold text for emphasis, as was the way of the original mabinogi. nexon mabi also had a censor in place so that certain words were starred out, and if this community really feels so passionately that people shouldn't be able to say certain things, then that should be the extent of it.

USE YOUR BLACKLIST.

Personally, I agree with this. As for the freedom of speech argument, it's like others have mentioned. There are always repercussions when you speak out of line in different settings. In life, whatever you say, it has to be context appropriate. It is up to the MabiPro staff team to decide what kind of context they want MabiPro to be.

Sometimes, the opinion that's been presented by the staff is that "it's our game, and we can do whatever we want". As much as that's true, I think ideally, the expectations would be made very clear to the player. The ToS actually have some pretty clear guidelines about the progression of punishment for repeated offenses based on the particular offense. I don't know enough about the specifics of player punishment to know if that's generally adhered to or not, but hopefully it is.

This server isn't a service, but in fact a project worked on by a few people for fun, as has been said many times. That means that the staff can moderate however they want, and no one is entitled to anything. That said, I'd hope that going forward, the expectations are made very clear, and are maybe a bit more lenient in some ways. The "pernicious behavior" clause seems very open to interpretation, and to me, seems like it is just contingent on someone's whim. Maybe that's just the reality of moderation in general (it can be subjective), but walking on eggshells in any community is not a nice feeling.

Altogether, I'm very happy with the discussion that has been brought about, even if it may have arose from unideal means.

As much as my words may fall flat because I think I am seen as a negative influence by some, I do appreciate the time that the staff, and the community, are taking to discuss this and come to a working conclusion.

I want to point that:





There is no CM that actually plays in nexon, that's why players have two choices which is file the ticket and report it or quit, you would never notice these people did quit because the community is bigger. Also, in the adult world, a cop would like to have talk with you, I bet you wouldn't able to tell him straight.


Using blacklist doesn't solve if the offender is affecting more than one person. Especially with community manager has to take care and make sure everthing is dandy. Also there's a huge flaw, If the offender is in blacklisted, it can be manipulated and change the story.

You got problem with someone? talk in private and settle it with that someone, Talking in public just makes worse.

Wouldn't make easier just people try to behave well and be civil?
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yes it does the next person just blacklists as well and so on then no one deals with this person

As a rule-abiding player, I've never experienced any overmoderation. Then again, I never went out of my way to being a nuisance to others. The server is a small neighborhood which tends to make things seem bigger than they actually are. Yes, it's unfortunate that we're in a bit of a player drought. It's natural though. ^_hopefullyWe'll get more interest once the holiday season rolls in. This place doesn't exactly advertise itself for good reasons. As far as private servers go, I think Pro has done well sticking around so far. So don't blame everything on the GMs, this is a free service from them after all.

Just to clarify, when people talk about freedom of speech, they're talking about the SPIRIT of free speech. Yes, saying things will cause others to react, but the point of it is that you should be able to say it no matter the consequences, instead of being thought patrolled and your words limited because of muh fee fee's. Let's not forget that controlling what others say has a very direct correlation with some... ideologies.

That's...not entirely correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Limitations
Moreso,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harm_principle

This has a very direct correlation with some ideologies too.
Some of us would like to play a comfy old video game and unwind, instead of being forced to watch all chat outlets devolve into an angry political battle - there's enough of that in the real world and plenty of other websites for it too.

I dont have firsthand witness to what happened so i am going to speak in "ifs"

If the offender was censored, which entails his or her statements erased, hidden, or pre-censored like those that happen on twitch chat that goes <message deleted> then thats stopping the "spirit of free speech"

if none of those happened and a ban or suspend happened thats simply the consequences of someones actions.

Either way, free speech should not be thrown around here. The GM Body is not the congress or any part of the US government. This whole place is private and the owner and GM body should decide what kind of things they will and will not allow.

Honestly I'm helping you guys make a better argument for what you guys are trying to push. Avoid the free speech call, thats not how any of this works. Instead, focus on making a case as to whether or not its a good thing to be strict or be laissez-faire when it comes to policing the server

Ofc GMs own the server and site, and can control what is allowed and what isn't. The issue that can happen is that it can spiral out of control to where it just becomes an echo chamber, and no one wants that. Disagreement is what drives innovation and new ideas, or can enhance what's already there by adding in new things. Now, if some guy was just shitposting IE Hitler did nothing wrong, then yeah, that's just bad trolling. But it's still their final call on what happens, all anyone else can do is voice their opinion and hope the GM's agree.

Personally for me, strict or laissez faire, obviously the latter. Mabi is a social MMO, a very social one, considering a good portion of the main quest lines require an extra one or two people to even do. So if words get arbitrarily banned, people might quit because of it, causing unnecessary player loss. Now, blatant racism or bigotry yes, ban em-that sort of thing is never needed. But if it's two people having an argument and it's mostly civil, just let it go on-though hopefully it just goes PM to PM, and not spamming global chat. But that can be remedied by simply asking them to do so.

Regarding the events in global chat, I can see you anger. As someone who abides rules and actually gives people respect, I have no issue with the moderation. I agree that freedom of speech should be allowed in this server, my issue is how that right is being exercised. The lack of common decency this community shows towards each other is concerning. I am not saying 'if you are offended say nothing' because that would be silly, but how you express yourself should also be considered when replying. It would save a lot of arguing and drama, which I don't think anyone on this server wants.

^
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