Authentic Old-School Mabinogi Experience
Posted at 09-23-18, 02:12 am Link | #41
What we could do is have a sort of community jury. Get random people/volunteers that neither of the two parties know and give them the evidence on hand, and let them decide on what should happen. That is the best system that anyone in human history has really come up with, and it has (mostly) worked so far.
This sounds like way too much work for something so silly. I only even think a "report" system is appropriate to bring attention to things that have gotten way out of hand, such as in the conditions that Auburn stated. Interpersonal drama shouldn't be moderated. If someone calls you a bad name and it is really affecting you, blacklist them and move on.
Likewise, for members of the staff, if you are offended by what a community member is saying, I understand that it is certainly within your right to do whatever the heck you want, because it is your server, and again, this is not a service. Personally, I am not a big fan of censorship in general. Almost all situations resolve on their own without authority intervention, and people aren't going to up and kill each other over it. If someone is "creating crisis", they're not going to pull a knife on their neighbour. Yes, some people might get salty and speak in aggressive text tones, but that's about the worst that can happen. I think that's just how people are and there is no need for external moderation.
Careful now, there was that old guy that tried to kill some kid over losing a Fortnite game. You never know when some guy trash talks after winning a PVP and is never seen again.
I think there was more to it than just losing a game of Fortnite. Generally people who do that kind of thing have a very long list of prescribed medications that they not decide to take.
post rev. 1 by heroesofdill1 on 09-24-18, 03:46 am
Posted at 09-24-18, 03:46 am Link | #42
Hi there Elf1 here. I see once again my name is being thrown around in conversation in a negative light and I have a few things to say about the ignorance of the community. During the conversation that took place between "Elf and Crew", we were in the same run together when the item was dropped. Excelsion took it upon himself to reiterate information that has been known since the dawn of Mabinogi. I respect that he decided to give his opinion on the matter, but this conversation could've been brought through a personal message. With Global Chat being active it created a stir in the community, and surprise! Once again, the community blew EVERYTHING out of proportion until Jade had to use the TOS to attempt to calm everyone down.
The issue that occurred for me PERSONALLY was that the TOS was being used unfairly in this instance to attempt to silence me without cause. For those who were wondering their still isnt a specific reason as too why I was banned. If you don't believe me read back to the global chat around 5:30, and simply search "Oblivion" in the Discord. I never attacked anyone or used and slander. I was told I was deserved to be called a faggot and to get the shit beat out of me, and where was the TOS to save me then? It didn't.
Patoots had my back in this instance as well, and I respected every decision that she made to try and help me get back onto this server.
Im sad that I must go, but this community (and certain GMS) have obviously made their decision on who I am as a person. Thank you everyone who played with me this last year and a bit, and I hope that the community can thrive and continue to grow.
The issue that occurred for me PERSONALLY was that the TOS was being used unfairly in this instance to attempt to silence me without cause. For those who were wondering their still isnt a specific reason as too why I was banned. If you don't believe me read back to the global chat around 5:30, and simply search "Oblivion" in the Discord. I never attacked anyone or used and slander. I was told I was deserved to be called a faggot and to get the shit beat out of me, and where was the TOS to save me then? It didn't.
Patoots had my back in this instance as well, and I respected every decision that she made to try and help me get back onto this server.
Im sad that I must go, but this community (and certain GMS) have obviously made their decision on who I am as a person. Thank you everyone who played with me this last year and a bit, and I hope that the community can thrive and continue to grow.
Posted at 09-24-18, 07:35 pm Link | #43
Hi there Elf1 here. I see once again my name is being thrown around in conversation in a negative light and I have a few things to say about the ignorance of the community. During the conversation that took place between "Elf and Crew", we were in the same run together when the item was dropped. Excelsion took it upon himself to reiterate information that has been known since the dawn of Mabinogi. I respect that he decided to give his opinion on the matter, but this conversation could've been brought through a personal message. With Global Chat being active it created a stir in the community, and surprise! Once again, the community blew EVERYTHING out of proportion until Jade had to use the TOS to attempt to calm everyone down.
The issue that occurred for me PERSONALLY was that the TOS was being used unfairly in this instance to attempt to silence me without cause. For those who were wondering their still isnt a specific reason as too why I was banned. If you don't believe me read back to the global chat around 5:30, and simply search "Oblivion" in the Discord. I never attacked anyone or used and slander. I was told I was deserved to be called a faggot and to get the shit beat out of me, and where was the TOS to save me then? It didn't.
Patoots had my back in this instance as well, and I respected every decision that she made to try and help me get back onto this server.
Im sad that I must go, but this community (and certain GMS) have obviously made their decision on who I am as a person. Thank you everyone who played with me this last year and a bit, and I hope that the community can thrive and continue to grow.
The issue that occurred for me PERSONALLY was that the TOS was being used unfairly in this instance to attempt to silence me without cause. For those who were wondering their still isnt a specific reason as too why I was banned. If you don't believe me read back to the global chat around 5:30, and simply search "Oblivion" in the Discord. I never attacked anyone or used and slander. I was told I was deserved to be called a faggot and to get the shit beat out of me, and where was the TOS to save me then? It didn't.
Patoots had my back in this instance as well, and I respected every decision that she made to try and help me get back onto this server.
Im sad that I must go, but this community (and certain GMS) have obviously made their decision on who I am as a person. Thank you everyone who played with me this last year and a bit, and I hope that the community can thrive and continue to grow.
I guess the GM's took the Event: Remove Elves seriously.
All lame jokes aside, would be nice to get you unbanned if you never were. Shit talking in MMO's are kind of a staple, and really should only be intervened when someone actually threatens to come out and beat you/kill. Perhaps GM's can go back and look at the situation, having hindsight and the situation cooling off now.
Posted at 09-24-18, 09:18 pm Link | #44
Getting banned for being stupid in an MMORPG sounds pointless, lets not turn this into a SJW environment, Free Speech baby.
Posted at 09-25-18, 05:10 am Link | #45
Posts: 172Criticisms are all fully welcome but by all means please keep it civil everyone.
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Posted at 09-26-18, 11:21 pm Link | #46
I'm fine with the way MabiPro is being moderated.
Players shouldn't be allowed to get their kicks from ruining the experience of others. Even if there is a block function, it's quite easy to spread rumors and force another player into becoming a social pariah.
While I myself don't really engage in many social aspects while playing MabiPro, it's easy to understand how a lack of moderation will impact the game. Some people will definitely quit because of bullying, and the general environment of the player base will become tainted and nasty over time. This will turn even more new players off and ruin the experience for those who choose to stick around.
It's like advocating for anarchy and expecting a good conclusion - all you'll get is people at each other's throats, because that's what people do when they're not controlled.
Players shouldn't be allowed to get their kicks from ruining the experience of others. Even if there is a block function, it's quite easy to spread rumors and force another player into becoming a social pariah.
While I myself don't really engage in many social aspects while playing MabiPro, it's easy to understand how a lack of moderation will impact the game. Some people will definitely quit because of bullying, and the general environment of the player base will become tainted and nasty over time. This will turn even more new players off and ruin the experience for those who choose to stick around.
It's like advocating for anarchy and expecting a good conclusion - all you'll get is people at each other's throats, because that's what people do when they're not controlled.
Posted at 09-27-18, 02:08 am Link | #47
I'm fine with the way MabiPro is being moderated.
Players shouldn't be allowed to get their kicks from ruining the experience of others. Even if there is a block function, it's quite easy to spread rumors and force another player into becoming a social pariah.
While I myself don't really engage in many social aspects while playing MabiPro, it's easy to understand how a lack of moderation will impact the game. Some people will definitely quit because of bullying, and the general environment of the player base will become tainted and nasty over time. This will turn even more new players off and ruin the experience for those who choose to stick around.
It's like advocating for anarchy and expecting a good conclusion - all you'll get is people at each other's throats, because that's what people do when they're not controlled.
Players shouldn't be allowed to get their kicks from ruining the experience of others. Even if there is a block function, it's quite easy to spread rumors and force another player into becoming a social pariah.
While I myself don't really engage in many social aspects while playing MabiPro, it's easy to understand how a lack of moderation will impact the game. Some people will definitely quit because of bullying, and the general environment of the player base will become tainted and nasty over time. This will turn even more new players off and ruin the experience for those who choose to stick around.
It's like advocating for anarchy and expecting a good conclusion - all you'll get is people at each other's throats, because that's what people do when they're not controlled.
Some people are nice by choice, not because there's threat of punishment otherwise.
Posted at 09-27-18, 08:19 am Link | #49
Getting banned for being stupid in an MMORPG sounds pointless, lets not turn this into a SJW environment, Free Speech baby.
I actually lost my motivation to play due to situation involving moderation, and it still kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth even though I was considering returning soon.
While I don't agree with the OP in that anything but death threats should be ignored, I think it's important for moderators to remember to respect players and give them the benefit of doubt. The TOS mentions mutual trust and respect long before it starts throwing around words like "pernicious." So trust and respect your players.
In hindsight, my own issue probably would've gone over better if I just advocated for myself normally instead of throwing a massive childish tantrum. Because the other party was a GM, I was afraid to question them and talk to them like another human being. Well, that's not happening again. If I start playing again and someone calls me "pernicious" when I have no impure intentions, I'm going to call that someone a bully and chew their head off about name calling.
One suggestion that could be considered is for GMs to take a radical hands-off approach until tickets are actually sent. If a GM sees a situation, they can act as a normal player and attempt to mediate or they can send a ticket about the situation themselves, but not throw around accusations, TOS violations, or punishment buttons without prior discussion with other GMs.
It's good that the TOS is being reconsidered in an attempt to improve it, but I just looked at the updated TOS and lost any inkling of returning. It's largely the same, except even more words have been added to the 'behavior' restrictions and multiclienting is now illegal.
If you want to foster a welcoming community, you can start by removing words like "toxic" from your TOS.
As for multiclienting, I think it was actually in a pretty good spot when I played. Everyone was limited to 3 accounts, and 3 accounts is the perfect sweet spot to be able to complete just about any shadow mission or generation without assistance from other players. I do not like being locked out of game content and I do not like begging for fillers, so it is unlikely I will return when there is a blanket rule against multiclienting. Multiclienting can also benefit the atmosphere of the community. When I played, if someone wanted a trip to TNN, it was simple for me to open up another client and ferry them over with an alt stationed at Avon.
But indeed, I could also use that alt to ferry MYSELF to TNN. If I actually wanted to use that alt, I could have my main powerlevel it, and then I could turn the alt into a support character to help my main through tough content. I could then marry that alt and form a guild with it. I could also just be lazy & lug it through SMs for extra gold. Golly, how PERNICIOUS! Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye if I couldn't multiclient and other people were doing so to get extra monies and loot. I play games for hugs and fun and stress relief, not for competition and jealousy. Is the economic impact of 3x gold from PQs & SMs really worth the friction and exclusion caused by banning people for multiclienting?
Despite my criticism, I acknowledge that MabiPro has done quite well for itself. Unlike others, you are not doing this for profit or at the behest of a corporation. Because of that, you have no restrictions regarding how you handle the community. Take full advantage of that fact and go back to the basics. Games should be lighthearted and bring smiles.
While I don't agree with the OP in that anything but death threats should be ignored, I think it's important for moderators to remember to respect players and give them the benefit of doubt. The TOS mentions mutual trust and respect long before it starts throwing around words like "pernicious." So trust and respect your players.
In hindsight, my own issue probably would've gone over better if I just advocated for myself normally instead of throwing a massive childish tantrum. Because the other party was a GM, I was afraid to question them and talk to them like another human being. Well, that's not happening again. If I start playing again and someone calls me "pernicious" when I have no impure intentions, I'm going to call that someone a bully and chew their head off about name calling.
One suggestion that could be considered is for GMs to take a radical hands-off approach until tickets are actually sent. If a GM sees a situation, they can act as a normal player and attempt to mediate or they can send a ticket about the situation themselves, but not throw around accusations, TOS violations, or punishment buttons without prior discussion with other GMs.
It's good that the TOS is being reconsidered in an attempt to improve it, but I just looked at the updated TOS and lost any inkling of returning. It's largely the same, except even more words have been added to the 'behavior' restrictions and multiclienting is now illegal.
If you want to foster a welcoming community, you can start by removing words like "toxic" from your TOS.
As for multiclienting, I think it was actually in a pretty good spot when I played. Everyone was limited to 3 accounts, and 3 accounts is the perfect sweet spot to be able to complete just about any shadow mission or generation without assistance from other players. I do not like being locked out of game content and I do not like begging for fillers, so it is unlikely I will return when there is a blanket rule against multiclienting. Multiclienting can also benefit the atmosphere of the community. When I played, if someone wanted a trip to TNN, it was simple for me to open up another client and ferry them over with an alt stationed at Avon.
But indeed, I could also use that alt to ferry MYSELF to TNN. If I actually wanted to use that alt, I could have my main powerlevel it, and then I could turn the alt into a support character to help my main through tough content. I could then marry that alt and form a guild with it. I could also just be lazy & lug it through SMs for extra gold. Golly, how PERNICIOUS! Personally, I wouldn't bat an eye if I couldn't multiclient and other people were doing so to get extra monies and loot. I play games for hugs and fun and stress relief, not for competition and jealousy. Is the economic impact of 3x gold from PQs & SMs really worth the friction and exclusion caused by banning people for multiclienting?
Despite my criticism, I acknowledge that MabiPro has done quite well for itself. Unlike others, you are not doing this for profit or at the behest of a corporation. Because of that, you have no restrictions regarding how you handle the community. Take full advantage of that fact and go back to the basics. Games should be lighthearted and bring smiles.
I also think it might be better to take a hands-on, involved approach with the community. Everyone is human here, and moderators are no exception. They're more likely to be treated as such when they plainly explain their motivations and opinions without reserve. That practice helps educate everyone and fosters more understanding from players. People are more likely to follow a rule when they are taught why it's necessary, and they also become better equipped to suggest improvements.
Maybe being too professional is MabiPro's downfall.
Maybe being too professional is MabiPro's downfall.
Rinrin, I won't address a lot of what you said personally due to it being highly opinionated and I would be out of line trying to reply to that in an official capacity given you're more than free and valid in holding those opinions, but you're wrong about the multi clienting thing. The line is drawn at reward multiplication among other unfair things. Literally everything not related to farming rewards you spoke in your post about multiclienting would be allowed under the TOS. I figured I should clear that up for you.
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Rinrin, I won't address a lot of what you said personally due to it being highly opinionated and I would be out of line trying to reply to that in an official capacity given you're more than free and valid in holding those opinions, but you're wrong about the multi clienting thing. The line is drawn at reward multiplication among other unfair things. Literally everything not related to farming rewards you spoke in your post about multiclienting would be allowed under the TOS. I figured I should clear that up for you.
Hi Patoots! Thanks a bunch for your attempted clarification. I'm still confused though. The TOS forbids "any usage of multiple clients that could be considered unfair." Depending on someone's perspective, even logging 3 characters on to fill the 5 spots required to form a new guild could be considered unfair. But I'll just take your word for it and forget about my misinterpretation. In that case, I'm still not sure which of the things I spoke about are "not related to farming." Especially turning an alt into a support character to help my main through tough content; are you saying that's allowed or unallowed? If it's allowed, and I for example bring an alt through a dungeon to use feathers on my main, do I then need to have that alt change channels in the boss room and everything's fine? And what about powerleveling alts? Can I do that in SMs if I drop the gold and only open one chest? All so confusing! If I do start playing again, I'll probably just make a ticket and ask for it to be kept open so I can log and report everything questionable I do in there. I don't like walking on tightropes.
I was actually considering suggesting in my post to only make a multiclienting rule for stuff like SM/PQ gold farming, but it seemed too confusing to enforce so I deleted it.
Posted at 10-27-18, 11:51 am Link | #54
Bringing in an alt into a SM/dungeon with your main to "only revive" yourself is still considered an unfair advantage vs a player who does not bring that alt to revive themselves.
The main issues that are against ToS involve an Unfair combat advantage/multiple rewards with very little extra effort.
The main issues that are against ToS involve an Unfair combat advantage/multiple rewards with very little extra effort.
Posted at 10-27-18, 09:20 pm Link | #55
Adults should have self control. Having a thick skin is great, but there's no reason why toxic players should get the experience they want at the cost of others.
It's true that people can choose to be kind of not, but really there's no good reason to be mean or downright toxic.
That said, people are people and there are times when people say things they really shouldn't.
I completely agree with moderating toxic behaviour, but I do think there's room for a sophisticated discussion over what is and isn't toxic.
PvP is a good example. I've been in situations where I've forgotten to turn it off in the official server and been camped relentlessly. It wasn't nice, but in this instance I don't think it would be suitable to take action against anyone. On the other hand, I actually do think a line has been crossed if at the same time they're assaulting me with slurs and being extremely obnoxious.
As for whether moderating toxic behaviour is the primary cause for a falling player count...
This is a perspective coming from a new player to the server, I joined today along with a friend. There were a few players hanging around Tir Chonail, and we started talking with one of them. They were really nice and it gave my friend and I a really great first impression.
Toxicity spreads. If it's allowed to run rampant, only those with tough skins and other toxic people will want to be around them.
Even as someone who isn't particularly bothered by most toxic behaviour, if my first experience had been someone calling me a faggot and telling me to kill myself...
I'd probably think twice before playing again.
Toxic players WILL turn new players away.
Aside from some trolls leaving, I don't think the OP really gives evidence for this being as important an issue for player retention as it's being made out to be.
It's true that people can choose to be kind of not, but really there's no good reason to be mean or downright toxic.
That said, people are people and there are times when people say things they really shouldn't.
I completely agree with moderating toxic behaviour, but I do think there's room for a sophisticated discussion over what is and isn't toxic.
PvP is a good example. I've been in situations where I've forgotten to turn it off in the official server and been camped relentlessly. It wasn't nice, but in this instance I don't think it would be suitable to take action against anyone. On the other hand, I actually do think a line has been crossed if at the same time they're assaulting me with slurs and being extremely obnoxious.
As for whether moderating toxic behaviour is the primary cause for a falling player count...
This is a perspective coming from a new player to the server, I joined today along with a friend. There were a few players hanging around Tir Chonail, and we started talking with one of them. They were really nice and it gave my friend and I a really great first impression.
Toxicity spreads. If it's allowed to run rampant, only those with tough skins and other toxic people will want to be around them.
Even as someone who isn't particularly bothered by most toxic behaviour, if my first experience had been someone calling me a faggot and telling me to kill myself...
I'd probably think twice before playing again.
Toxic players WILL turn new players away.
Aside from some trolls leaving, I don't think the OP really gives evidence for this being as important an issue for player retention as it's being made out to be.
Hello Reborn, let me welcome you to MabiPro.
Could you please define toxic for me? Surely you understand why as it is due to overuse that specific word is and has been applied to every form of misbehaviour or innocuous/out-of-context jokes.
Could you please define toxic for me? Surely you understand why as it is due to overuse that specific word is and has been applied to every form of misbehaviour or innocuous/out-of-context jokes.
Posted at 10-27-18, 10:24 pm Link | #57
Hello Reborn, let me welcome you to MabiPro.
Could you please define toxic for me? Surely you understand why as it is due to overuse that specific word is and has been applied to every form of misbehaviour or innocuous/out-of-context jokes.
Could you please define toxic for me? Surely you understand why as it is due to overuse that specific word is and has been applied to every form of misbehaviour or innocuous/out-of-context jokes.
Thank you, and I understand the request.
It'll be different for everyone, but I'lll describe to you where I would personally make a distinction.
Earlier in the thread, an example was given of how someone was muted for calling a friend a "fucking faggot" publicly. I don't think they should have been muted for this, but I actually would have agreed with a warning. To me, that's not toxic - it's just kind of stupid. However if after recieving that warning, said user went around spamming the slur and demanding to know who reported him - then it's toxic.
I'd define being toxic as being past a certain level of anti social behaviour. I could give you more examples, but that's what it comes down to.
It'll be up to the mods to decide what is and isn't suitable, which isn't ideal but I think it's the best option available.
That said, I do think mods should be accountable - and as a community we should criticize what we can agree are bad moderation decisions. We should do it with respect, but I don't think moderator decisions should be treated as infallible. In a lot of the cases here, I agree mods could have used a lighter brush.
Bringing in an alt into a SM/dungeon with your main to "only revive" yourself is still considered an unfair advantage vs a player who does not bring that alt to revive themselves.
The main issues that are against ToS involve an Unfair combat advantage/multiple rewards with very little extra effort.
The main issues that are against ToS involve an Unfair combat advantage/multiple rewards with very little extra effort.
What about with lots of extra effort? Can I have two mains, an elf and a giant, and have them go on adventures together?
What if I have my main run an alt through Glowing Garg to get that alt trans?
What about ranking Rain Casting on an alt and using it boost my main's synth success rate without spending all that AP?
What about using advanced feathers with an alt instead of asking in global?
Oh, and I mentioned being locked out of content earlier... what about doing Taillteann Defense for G9? To do that alone you would need to have all three characters participate in combat, not just drop your main into the mission.
Posted at 10-27-18, 11:13 pm Link | #59
Thanks for providing a rather quick and succinct answer to my question. The provided example is enough for me to understand the meaning behind your post and so, I must admit your definition is very alike like mine, although not through those very words and some slight but perhaps redundant differences. It is much easier to discuss issues when one's definition of a word is known. Onto the issue, I don't think many people would enjoy walking on eggshells especially in a very social MMORPG, so it is of utmost importance for you or any others to quickly end this animosity lest it continue to plague this server and result in further damage to the relationship between both entities. The team has expressed multiple times before that they are very willing to reach a consensus with the community on which path the server should take thus I imagine the ToS to be not that much different.
Reaching a consensus between the community and displaying its results to then discuss it with the team in order to progress towards that intended result would be a much more effective solution than quick quips here and there on how the issue should be dealt with, as everyone has a different idea on what to do. And for what it's worth, I've seen close to none 'toxicity' on display in this server, so you and your friend should fit in quite nicely.
Reaching a consensus between the community and displaying its results to then discuss it with the team in order to progress towards that intended result would be a much more effective solution than quick quips here and there on how the issue should be dealt with, as everyone has a different idea on what to do. And for what it's worth, I've seen close to none 'toxicity' on display in this server, so you and your friend should fit in quite nicely.
And for what it's worth, I've seen close to none 'toxicity' on display in this server, so you and your friend should fit in quite nicely.
I'm happy to hear that!
I can put up with a lot personally, but I do think it's reasonable to expect some level of courtesy from others. I definitely don't want people walking on eggshells either.
My main point is just to deter people from taking on extreme positions like it's all or nothing. I think some moderation of what players should be allowed to say is a good thing as it discourages toxic behaviour, but at the same time people should feel free to say what they want as long as they're respectful.
To define respectful for you, as I understand it. All I mean is thinking about the people around you before you say something. For example, saying you're going to kill yourself if an item doesn't drop soon is a bit edgy but fine by me. Making commit neck rope memes after another player mentions that they were suicidal isn't.
Even in that situation I wouldn't suggest a ban though (although again a warning might be in order), it's just an example of where I think someone could toe the line without really meaning to.
If someone's going to be intentionally nasty, like I mentioned before - only at that point would I agree with muting or banning them outright.
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