Authentic Old-School Mabinogi Experience
Future Content Polls: Please consider a lower threshold. (rev. 1 by lycoris on 04-10-17, 08:23 am)
Posted at 04-10-17, 08:22 am Link | #1
Requiring 75% to vote yes on any given item creates a huge bias in favor of the "no" segment of the player base, whereas a simple majority vote would be far more representative of all players. As it stands, a large chunk of "yes" votes are basically invalidated. It would also help prevent the vote from being spoiled by the segment of players who vote in competitive interest or to drag down other players, as every vote would matter more strongly instead of being a threshold that can be defeated by 26%.
(Alternately, if by chance this was done as a way to focus development time only on the most desired things, it would be wonderful to consider returning to implement the lower priority 60-74 range items further down the road when the more highly requested suggestions have already been dealt with, or when they're very easy changes.)
(Alternately, if by chance this was done as a way to focus development time only on the most desired things, it would be wonderful to consider returning to implement the lower priority 60-74 range items further down the road when the more highly requested suggestions have already been dealt with, or when they're very easy changes.)
Posted at 04-10-17, 10:57 am Link | #2
It'd help, if the no votes were requested to give a reason. I mean, some people are against change, and will vote no literally for that reason alone. Others vote no, just because they're impartial and/or their friend requested them to. There will be no good reason for some no votes.
Reasoning and numbers casting votes, say 10 voters vs 1,000, should have the votes more carefully considered, as 25% of 1,000 wouldn't be that hard to see no on. It'd help to see some votes on the forums honestly, as we could make posts supporting or opposing, which may help sway others to our viewpoint. Not to mention that we don't have to worry about being able to get on the game to cast a vote, can just read and go.
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Reasoning and numbers casting votes, say 10 voters vs 1,000, should have the votes more carefully considered, as 25% of 1,000 wouldn't be that hard to see no on. It'd help to see some votes on the forums honestly, as we could make posts supporting or opposing, which may help sway others to our viewpoint. Not to mention that we don't have to worry about being able to get on the game to cast a vote, can just read and go.
_________________________
Discord: Tonkatunk#7079
https://github.com/Tonkatunk/Mabi-Pro-Lazyfae-Mods
Posted at 04-10-17, 12:16 pm Link | #3
thats not how a majority works
Posted at 04-10-17, 01:36 pm Link | #4
Requiring 75% to vote yes on any given item creates a huge bias in favor of the "no" segment of the player base, whereas a simple majority vote would be far more representative of all players. As it stands, a large chunk of "yes" votes are basically invalidated. It would also help prevent the vote from being spoiled by the segment of players who vote in competitive interest or to drag down other players, as every vote would matter more strongly instead of being a threshold that can be defeated by 26%.
(Alternately, if by chance this was done as a way to focus development time only on the most desired things, it would be wonderful to consider returning to implement the lower priority 60-74 range items further down the road when the more highly requested suggestions have already been dealt with, or when they're very easy changes.)
(Alternately, if by chance this was done as a way to focus development time only on the most desired things, it would be wonderful to consider returning to implement the lower priority 60-74 range items further down the road when the more highly requested suggestions have already been dealt with, or when they're very easy changes.)
Don't take me wrong, most of us aren't agaisnt change, and most of us that voted "no" in certain things on the content poll WANT good change, but again, GOOD change.
Regardless of what others might think, and again, Im basing this on my opinion, Wings is a good example of one of my "no" votes, why did I voted no on this some might ask? doesn't affect anyone right? its a visual item right?
True, it is, but look at official? currently(its becoming less of a trend now, but the stupid reasoning is still there) a player with Wings is a player with status, that knows the game.(this is to most of the dumbfucks that still play on official btw, not everyone thinks like this, Im aware of that.)
If that became the trend end, I would quit the next day, and again, this is an example, good or bad, this is the reasoning I followed to vote "no" on that particular part of the content pool, and yes yes Im aware that could not end like that here, that wings are just a vanity item, but its my point of view on the matter.
Posted at 04-10-17, 05:06 pm Link | #5
True, it is, but look at official? currently(its becoming less of a trend now, but the stupid reasoning is still there) a player with Wings is a player with status, that knows the game.(this is to most of the dumbfucks that still play on official btw, not everyone thinks like this, Im aware of that.)
I'm curious, what do you define as 'a player with status, that knows the game?' Cuz i was easily able to solo MA tournament, without being hit. I never once had wings, nor did i want them as i found them to be ugly most the time. They didn't suit my character, and i wasn't interested in completely changing my style to look decent with a pair of wings. Most the people i associated with were the same.
As for vanity, or end game, that's always gonna exist. If it's not wings, there'll be something else considered rare and desirable. I mean, if someone wants to get a style that goes well with wings, and actually gets the wings, good for them. If they don't want to get a style suitable to their wings, they can just look ugly with wings. Either way, doesn't affect me, as most people who wear them, only think they look good.
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Posted at 04-10-17, 05:30 pm Link | #6
One of my concerns is how easy things that people want pass, and how hard it will be to nerf things that people like. Another issue with content polls is that there are some things that NEED to nerfed for the longevity of the game that most people do not WANT nerfed.
For instance, I'm assuming that if there was a poll about Rabbie Basic back in the day, every single person that was benefitting from the absurdly high gold gain would not want it to nerfed. This could be a large portion of the given playerbase. I wasn't around for that bit on this server, but I was around for that bit on another server and it went over exactly as I just described.
Similarly, we have SCC which was by and far the best experience gain in the game. I don't know if there was a poll for that either, but it was nerfed because the experience gain actually shut out all other places to grind in the game by being just too damned efficient. Again, most people benefit from that considerably, so a poll would end in rejection.
These kinds of difficult decisions are going to come up again. Off the top of my head, I feel like future targets would be many aspects of red coins and golem summoning. But the problem is, while it's very easy to pass something that people benefit from, it's very difficult to take certain freedoms away from people. 10 herbs per patch passed with flying colors. Nerfing golems will be an absolute disaster.
For instance, I'm assuming that if there was a poll about Rabbie Basic back in the day, every single person that was benefitting from the absurdly high gold gain would not want it to nerfed. This could be a large portion of the given playerbase. I wasn't around for that bit on this server, but I was around for that bit on another server and it went over exactly as I just described.
Similarly, we have SCC which was by and far the best experience gain in the game. I don't know if there was a poll for that either, but it was nerfed because the experience gain actually shut out all other places to grind in the game by being just too damned efficient. Again, most people benefit from that considerably, so a poll would end in rejection.
These kinds of difficult decisions are going to come up again. Off the top of my head, I feel like future targets would be many aspects of red coins and golem summoning. But the problem is, while it's very easy to pass something that people benefit from, it's very difficult to take certain freedoms away from people. 10 herbs per patch passed with flying colors. Nerfing golems will be an absolute disaster.
Posted at 04-10-17, 06:42 pm Link | #7
Essentially just agreeing with Jean here, but I definitely feel that there are matters that shouldn't be handled strictly with just a community poll.
Leaving the implementation of cosmetic items and non-gameplay altering items and such, sure, that can be held up to a poll for the community. Adding future skillsets, on the other hand? Or adding MP 30+ pots to the selection of healer shops? I don't think these are things that the community should be deciding here on their own.
Not to say I'm shitting on the collective of other players in general, but I do see a lot of what I consider to be very questionable opinions and ideas at best, and there are a lot of things that need to be heavily considered before it's left up to just a poll.
Leaving the implementation of cosmetic items and non-gameplay altering items and such, sure, that can be held up to a poll for the community. Adding future skillsets, on the other hand? Or adding MP 30+ pots to the selection of healer shops? I don't think these are things that the community should be deciding here on their own.
Not to say I'm shitting on the collective of other players in general, but I do see a lot of what I consider to be very questionable opinions and ideas at best, and there are a lot of things that need to be heavily considered before it's left up to just a poll.
There is a reason certain decisions (Rabbie) were not present in the polls, and with my idea I wasn't talking about them whatsoever. I'm speaking only and specifically of the questions the GMs decide belong in a poll in the first place. These are the things they aren't sure about implementing, or think the player base could be divided about in a way that isn't purely exploitative.
I also do not believe questions related to specific skill sets should be present in polls unless they are changed to majority, because some players who don't play that skill set are far more likely to vote no on something supporting them, simply because they don't give a crap and don't like seeing others get nice things if they aren't going to benefit too. This is what happened in many cases with the Mystic Pearl question, which was allowed to be defeated by a very low percentage of players, most of which do not use alchemy or Life Drain.
(If this change took place, wings would still have lost. That's a good example of a feature that the playerbase clearly said no to.)
I also do not believe questions related to specific skill sets should be present in polls unless they are changed to majority, because some players who don't play that skill set are far more likely to vote no on something supporting them, simply because they don't give a crap and don't like seeing others get nice things if they aren't going to benefit too. This is what happened in many cases with the Mystic Pearl question, which was allowed to be defeated by a very low percentage of players, most of which do not use alchemy or Life Drain.
(If this change took place, wings would still have lost. That's a good example of a feature that the playerbase clearly said no to.)
On the previous versions of this server, the majority "agreed" upon rates of 4x ap, 10x exp, etc etc... I mean this no offense, but people don't care or know what's better for them. For that matter and more importantly, what's good for the server.
Polls should serve as a indication of how players feel about something, not the basis for change. Have polls. The information is useful to our devs. However, I think attaching expectation to polls is ridiculous.
The way I see it is that if the devs see a large portion of the player base (in this case 75/25) want change, they will consider it more strongly. That doesn't mean they will do that you want them to do.
tldr; taking polls seriously is silly.
Polls should serve as a indication of how players feel about something, not the basis for change. Have polls. The information is useful to our devs. However, I think attaching expectation to polls is ridiculous.
The way I see it is that if the devs see a large portion of the player base (in this case 75/25) want change, they will consider it more strongly. That doesn't mean they will do that you want them to do.
tldr; taking polls seriously is silly.
Posted at 04-10-17, 06:58 pm Link | #10
Not to say I'm shitting on the collective of other players in general, but I do see a lot of what I consider to be very questionable opinions and ideas at best, and there are a lot of things that need to be heavily considered before it's left up to just a poll.
But sometimes this is exactly what needs done. For example, a person who is only playing as giant, and never done human or elf, has no business saying what changes should be done to range, unless it only applies to mobs. Similarly, there are plenty of people who are only familiar with one style of combat, and aren't a bit interested in the intricacies and true potential of much of anything. Yet, they will still vote in polls, in a way they think benefits them or their friends, regardless of what kind of impact it may have.
I think calling into question people's reason, looking for an open discussion on a subject, should be important to the growth of the game, and implementation of ideas. There are some matters i'm sure the staff, or flip, are dead set must be done. I'm sure the rabbie and SCC changes were such. And, while i may not like it, i do understand that; it's their game, they work on it, so while they may cater to us, ultimately it is their decision on whether something gets changed or not. But, on the same note, if we get staff who don't know very much about an aspect of the game or skill, i don't want them tinkering too much with it, because... well i'm sure most everyone's familiar with sabina and how she 'doesn't know what she's doing really' when she played, it's not an appealing thought.
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Posted at 04-10-17, 07:01 pm Link | #11
We are wildly off topic in talking about administrative decisions at all. Polls have nothing to do with these. Rates are off topic, as they are a central server feature that has been in place since inception and changing them now would cause a huge player divide. They are also an administrative decision which has never been placed in a poll on this server.
Posted at 04-10-17, 07:51 pm Link | #12
There is a reason certain decisions (Rabbie) were not present in the polls, and with my idea I wasn't talking about them whatsoever. I'm speaking only and specifically of the questions the GMs decide belong in a poll in the first place. These are the things they aren't sure about implementing, or think the player base could be divided about in a way that isn't purely exploitative.
What I was saying about Rabbie was in favor of your point. I think requiring overwhelming agreement from the community at large will stiff a lot of changes that can be considered necessary to the enjoyment of the game. I'm simply making a point that your suggestions about lowering the agreement threshold are indicative of a far more difficult underlying dilemma.
Posted by bunnjoo
. I mean this no offense, but people don't care or know what's better for them. For that matter and more importantly, what's good for the server.
Exactly . I'm concerned abou this servers future growth
Posted at 04-12-17, 02:53 am Link | #14
One of my concerns is how easy things that people want pass, and how hard it will be to nerf things that people like. Another issue with content polls is that there are some things that NEED to nerfed for the longevity of the game that most people do not WANT nerfed.
For instance, I'm assuming that if there was a poll about Rabbie Basic back in the day, every single person that was benefitting from the absurdly high gold gain would not want it to nerfed. This could be a large portion of the given playerbase. I wasn't around for that bit on this server, but I was around for that bit on another server and it went over exactly as I just described.
Similarly, we have SCC which was by and far the best experience gain in the game. I don't know if there was a poll for that either, but it was nerfed because the experience gain actually shut out all other places to grind in the game by being just too damned efficient. Again, most people benefit from that considerably, so a poll would end in rejection.
These kinds of difficult decisions are going to come up again. Off the top of my head, I feel like future targets would be many aspects of red coins and golem summoning. But the problem is, while it's very easy to pass something that people benefit from, it's very difficult to take certain freedoms away from people. 10 herbs per patch passed with flying colors. Nerfing golems will be an absolute disaster.
For instance, I'm assuming that if there was a poll about Rabbie Basic back in the day, every single person that was benefitting from the absurdly high gold gain would not want it to nerfed. This could be a large portion of the given playerbase. I wasn't around for that bit on this server, but I was around for that bit on another server and it went over exactly as I just described.
Similarly, we have SCC which was by and far the best experience gain in the game. I don't know if there was a poll for that either, but it was nerfed because the experience gain actually shut out all other places to grind in the game by being just too damned efficient. Again, most people benefit from that considerably, so a poll would end in rejection.
These kinds of difficult decisions are going to come up again. Off the top of my head, I feel like future targets would be many aspects of red coins and golem summoning. But the problem is, while it's very easy to pass something that people benefit from, it's very difficult to take certain freedoms away from people. 10 herbs per patch passed with flying colors. Nerfing golems will be an absolute disaster.
Posted by bunnjoo
. I mean this no offense, but people don't care or know what's better for them. For that matter and more importantly, what's good for the server.
Exactly . I'm concerned abou this servers future growth
This is fair, some do want things that simply make it easier or harder for them. But when discussing anything, it's important to give good reasoning/arguments. Explaining your points well. Personally, I don't really see what's wrong with really anything mechanically in the game, it's old mabi and old mabi worked. It's not flawless, but it'll never be flawless. Just because you say that people don't know what they want, doesn't mean that you do. Discussion is good, but when people say no or yes to something look at why they're saying no/yes If they're just saying no/yes without explaining why in detail, then fine call them out for it.
Saying "Oh, that's a cool idea" or "No, that's a terrible idea" isn't useful to anybody. Why even have a forum if you're just going to say yes or no. Just because something like nerfing golems would make the game harder doesn't mean its a good idea, why are you nerfing it, have you seen it in the endgame, is it a big problem right now and is it over centralizing the game? I don't know, and no one is really explaining why, it's just because devcat nerfed golems, but why though?
Let me give an example, someone says the game is too easy, I disagree, why? Because its not that the mechanics of windmill or something make it too easy to die, its that you're given a free nao every ingame morning and also start with five, meaning that, you'll get free holy water, and have a much lower chance of losing your gear during a dungeon. You'll also lose less durability over the course of a run. If you instead limited it to five per day, or increased the amount of time you had to wait to receive another, it'd make the game far more challenging, it'd force them to choose when to use their nao stones and when not to, and it'd still help a new player starting out without being able to essentially wait 30 minutes to eventually get their item if they dropped it. The only thing really stopping any player right now from completing any run is their impatience, or they're at baol or tnn. That's how I'd argue for change, and I'd like to see that in more posts, because I'm not seeing this from many people.
It'd help, if the no votes were requested to give a reason. I mean, some people are against change, and will vote no literally for that reason alone. Others vote no, just because they're impartial and/or their friend requested them to. There will be no good reason for some no votes.
Reasoning and numbers casting votes, say 10 voters vs 1,000, should have the votes more carefully considered, as 25% of 1,000 wouldn't be that hard to see no on. It'd help to see some votes on the forums honestly, as we could make posts supporting or opposing, which may help sway others to our viewpoint. Not to mention that we don't have to worry about being able to get on the game to cast a vote, can just read and go.
Reasoning and numbers casting votes, say 10 voters vs 1,000, should have the votes more carefully considered, as 25% of 1,000 wouldn't be that hard to see no on. It'd help to see some votes on the forums honestly, as we could make posts supporting or opposing, which may help sway others to our viewpoint. Not to mention that we don't have to worry about being able to get on the game to cast a vote, can just read and go.
Okay, if that's the case, the yes should also be required to give a reason, why shouldn't they? Just because the majority says yes/no does not make better, true, etc. You still need to say why no matter what side you're on.
One of my concerns is how easy things that people want pass, and how hard it will be to nerf things that people like. Another issue with content polls is that there are some things that NEED to nerfed for the longevity of the game that most people do not WANT nerfed.
For instance, I'm assuming that if there was a poll about Rabbie Basic back in the day, every single person that was benefitting from the absurdly high gold gain would not want it to nerfed. This could be a large portion of the given playerbase. I wasn't around for that bit on this server, but I was around for that bit on another server and it went over exactly as I just described.
Similarly, we have SCC which was by and far the best experience gain in the game. I don't know if there was a poll for that either, but it was nerfed because the experience gain actually shut out all other places to grind in the game by being just too damned efficient. Again, most people benefit from that considerably, so a poll would end in rejection.
These kinds of difficult decisions are going to come up again. Off the top of my head, I feel like future targets would be many aspects of red coins and golem summoning. But the problem is, while it's very easy to pass something that people benefit from, it's very difficult to take certain freedoms away from people. 10 herbs per patch passed with flying colors. Nerfing golems will be an absolute disaster.
For instance, I'm assuming that if there was a poll about Rabbie Basic back in the day, every single person that was benefitting from the absurdly high gold gain would not want it to nerfed. This could be a large portion of the given playerbase. I wasn't around for that bit on this server, but I was around for that bit on another server and it went over exactly as I just described.
Similarly, we have SCC which was by and far the best experience gain in the game. I don't know if there was a poll for that either, but it was nerfed because the experience gain actually shut out all other places to grind in the game by being just too damned efficient. Again, most people benefit from that considerably, so a poll would end in rejection.
These kinds of difficult decisions are going to come up again. Off the top of my head, I feel like future targets would be many aspects of red coins and golem summoning. But the problem is, while it's very easy to pass something that people benefit from, it's very difficult to take certain freedoms away from people. 10 herbs per patch passed with flying colors. Nerfing golems will be an absolute disaster.
Posted by bunnjoo
. I mean this no offense, but people don't care or know what's better for them. For that matter and more importantly, what's good for the server.
Exactly . I'm concerned abou this servers future growth
This is fair, some do want things that simply make it easier or harder for them. But when discussing anything, it's important to give good reasoning/arguments. Explaining your points well. Personally, I don't really see what's wrong with really anything mechanically in the game, it's old mabi and old mabi worked. It's not flawless, but it'll never be flawless. Just because you say that people don't know what they want, doesn't mean that you do. Discussion is good, but when people say no or yes to something look at why they're saying no/yes If they're just saying no/yes without explaining why in detail, then fine call them out for it.
Saying "Oh, that's a cool idea" or "No, that's a terrible idea" isn't useful to anybody. Why even have a forum if you're just going to say yes or no. Just because something like nerfing golems would make the game harder doesn't mean its a good idea, why are you nerfing it, have you seen it in the endgame, is it a big problem right now and is it over centralizing the game? I don't know, and no one is really explaining why, it's just because devcat nerfed golems, but why though?
Let me give an example, someone says the game is too easy, I disagree, why? Because its not that the mechanics of windmill or something make it too easy to die, its that you're given a free nao every ingame morning and also start with five, meaning that, you'll get free holy water, and have a much lower chance of losing your gear during a dungeon. You'll also lose less durability over the course of a run. If you instead limited it to five per day, or increased the amount of time you had to wait to receive another, it'd make the game far more challenging, it'd force them to choose when to use their nao stones and when not to, and it'd still help a new player starting out without being able to essentially wait 30 minutes to eventually get their item if they dropped it. The only thing really stopping any player right now from completing any run is their impatience, or they're at baol or tnn. That's how I'd argue for change, and I'd like to see that in more posts, because I'm not seeing this from many people.
It'd help, if the no votes were requested to give a reason. I mean, some people are against change, and will vote no literally for that reason alone. Others vote no, just because they're impartial and/or their friend requested them to. There will be no good reason for some no votes.
Reasoning and numbers casting votes, say 10 voters vs 1,000, should have the votes more carefully considered, as 25% of 1,000 wouldn't be that hard to see no on. It'd help to see some votes on the forums honestly, as we could make posts supporting or opposing, which may help sway others to our viewpoint. Not to mention that we don't have to worry about being able to get on the game to cast a vote, can just read and go.
Reasoning and numbers casting votes, say 10 voters vs 1,000, should have the votes more carefully considered, as 25% of 1,000 wouldn't be that hard to see no on. It'd help to see some votes on the forums honestly, as we could make posts supporting or opposing, which may help sway others to our viewpoint. Not to mention that we don't have to worry about being able to get on the game to cast a vote, can just read and go.
Okay, if that's the case, the yes should also be required to give a reason, why shouldn't they? Just because the majority says yes/no does not make better, true, etc. You still need to say why no matter what side you're on.
I already tried to give the community a chance by presentin them with fully fleshed out content those discussions have little to no activity lol players here can hardly agree on function (mana evao/NPC'ng mana potions / skill balance ect)c. I mo just make your own mmo like I will and leave this as a nostalgia server
Posted at 04-25-17, 02:30 pm Link | #16
Posts: 2147On the previous versions of this server, the majority "agreed" upon rates of 4x ap, 10x exp, etc etc... I mean this no offense, but people don't care or know what's better for them. For that matter and more importantly, what's good for the server.
Polls should serve as a indication of how players feel about something, not the basis for change. Have polls. The information is useful to our devs. However, I think attaching expectation to polls is ridiculous.
The way I see it is that if the devs see a large portion of the player base (in this case 75/25) want change, they will consider it more strongly. That doesn't mean they will do that you want them to do.
tldr; taking polls seriously is silly.
Polls should serve as a indication of how players feel about something, not the basis for change. Have polls. The information is useful to our devs. However, I think attaching expectation to polls is ridiculous.
The way I see it is that if the devs see a large portion of the player base (in this case 75/25) want change, they will consider it more strongly. That doesn't mean they will do that you want them to do.
tldr; taking polls seriously is silly.
This is mostly correct; however there have never been any previous versions of this server.
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