Authentic Old-School Mabinogi Experience
Dual Weilding change
Posted at 02-18-18, 01:40 am Link | #1
I'm going to spend most of this post throwing calculations at you all. So, yeah. Just getting that out of the way. By the end, you'll understand where I am coming from.
Posted at 02-18-18, 02:32 am Link | #2
+1
Always wanted to see a proper 2H buff.
or a nerf to dual wield, such as only having a max potential of 50 bal
Always wanted to see a proper 2H buff.
or a nerf to dual wield, such as only having a max potential of 50 bal
post rev. 1 by Jinforrver on 02-18-18, 03:47 am
Posted at 02-18-18, 03:45 am Link | #3
So i'll start by saying I don't think there is a problem with dual-wielding.
I also spent my time playing live, g2-g15, pretty strictly using a bow/warhammer-sheild. So im not defending it because im worried something im using will get nerfed.
Dual-wield is better at windmill
Two-handed is better at smash
Good this is perfectly fine.
50 str? You based all of your math on 50 str, the difference for smash numbers would be massive between 2h and dw with higher str. 300 would have been a better base to work with.
You gloss over the efficiency of the enchants pretty quickly.
For 2h I need to get a weapon with a r8 and r7 enchant and a max strength artisan roll
For dw I need to get a weapon with r6 and r5 enchant plus max strength roll, twice. And, even then its -140sp THATS NUTS.
However there is a probelm I will agree with here. Battleswords are way to powerful but not solely because they are just better than most weapons but because artisan rolls were never meant to be such a small cost to roll.
They should be far more thought behind if the potenial benifit fits the cost to them.
I don't think theres any problem with dual-wielding. Dual-wielding is better at something than two handers and thats ok.
The fact that windmill is meta is what is making it seem like a larger issue than it really is.
Artisan rolls cost needs to be reevaluated or potentially their effectiveness.
I also spent my time playing live, g2-g15, pretty strictly using a bow/warhammer-sheild. So im not defending it because im worried something im using will get nerfed.
Dual-wield is better at windmill
Two-handed is better at smash
Good this is perfectly fine.
50 str? You based all of your math on 50 str, the difference for smash numbers would be massive between 2h and dw with higher str. 300 would have been a better base to work with.
You gloss over the efficiency of the enchants pretty quickly.
For 2h I need to get a weapon with a r8 and r7 enchant and a max strength artisan roll
For dw I need to get a weapon with r6 and r5 enchant plus max strength roll, twice. And, even then its -140sp THATS NUTS.
However there is a probelm I will agree with here. Battleswords are way to powerful but not solely because they are just better than most weapons but because artisan rolls were never meant to be such a small cost to roll.
They should be far more thought behind if the potenial benifit fits the cost to them.
I don't think theres any problem with dual-wielding. Dual-wielding is better at something than two handers and thats ok.
The fact that windmill is meta is what is making it seem like a larger issue than it really is.
Artisan rolls cost needs to be reevaluated or potentially their effectiveness.
-snip-
I know I used 50str for all the calcs. I also know that I said that with higher str, 2h smash wins over dual. (However, rereading it, I didn't put it in as many times as I did on the prior type up I did. I apologize for not stating it more times and will fix that, thank you.) I mainly used 50str to show that even at low str, dual is a heavy force.
2h weapons were what I compared to because prior they were the heavy hitter. But this also hurts 1h and shield too. I didn't bother stating that because no one really cares about defense. It's a great skill and it does work, but it's awful for later things and multi agro and is much less desirable compared to just killing things quickly instead.
2h weapons offered high dmg, splash range and dmg, and a smash bonus, while removing your ability to use a shield for extra def. This results in higher skill dmg for everything as well.
Dual offers MUCH higher dmg, higher smash dmg (until you gain higher str for 2h OR are giant), and other skill dmg than 2h weapons as well as much better normal attack dmg and more crit chances when done.
I'm completely fine with dual being the better choice for normal attack. It's the main thing about it if you ask me. The insanely high skill dmg is an after effect that was only amplified farther by stronger 1h weapons and one with an amazingly broken artisan that rivals, and completely crushes, a 2hs.
Also, you are right. the WM meta makes it even more noticeable, but that doesn't change the fact that it exists even without wm.
-test- okay, It seems I cannot edit the original post. I do not know why, it just will not complete. It always fails and loads a white blank page. *shrug*
Posted at 02-22-18, 06:08 pm Link | #5
(My bias is sword&board. Tanking isn't in the cards for this game, so I dual wield)
I've always thought something similar. When I open a weapon shop, there aren't many choices in weapon shops when it comes to 2h swords, and the damage ranges on a pair of 1h swords usually ends up higher. 2h weapons should be absolutely devastating to be hit by. Actually, most people would be doing n+1 when normal attacking. In your first comparison of max damage normal attacks, 125x6 =750, and 151x3=453. The difference grows from about 200 dmg to about 300 dmg when you n+1. I just don't think that makes sense.
Maybe what Nickel said was right, simply cap off the balance when dual wielding. You wouldn't really have as much control swinging two weapons around as you would with two hands on a single handle. The trade off for dual wielding would be higher highs, and lower lows if you cap the balance.
Another idea is to tweak WM, since it is the meta and makes DWing the obvious choice. I always thought WM was something to shake an opponent's footing or put some distance between you two. I'd suggest giving 2h weapons a larger radius, but the R1 radius is already pretty large for 1h swords. Maybe nerf the skill damage a bit on WM (I can already hear cries of indignation if that actually happened).
Or maybe do nothing. Like how bows are the elf go-to, 1h swords are the human go-to and 2h swords are the giant go-to.
I've always thought something similar. When I open a weapon shop, there aren't many choices in weapon shops when it comes to 2h swords, and the damage ranges on a pair of 1h swords usually ends up higher. 2h weapons should be absolutely devastating to be hit by. Actually, most people would be doing n+1 when normal attacking. In your first comparison of max damage normal attacks, 125x6 =750, and 151x3=453. The difference grows from about 200 dmg to about 300 dmg when you n+1. I just don't think that makes sense.
Maybe what Nickel said was right, simply cap off the balance when dual wielding. You wouldn't really have as much control swinging two weapons around as you would with two hands on a single handle. The trade off for dual wielding would be higher highs, and lower lows if you cap the balance.
Another idea is to tweak WM, since it is the meta and makes DWing the obvious choice. I always thought WM was something to shake an opponent's footing or put some distance between you two. I'd suggest giving 2h weapons a larger radius, but the R1 radius is already pretty large for 1h swords. Maybe nerf the skill damage a bit on WM (I can already hear cries of indignation if that actually happened).
Or maybe do nothing. Like how bows are the elf go-to, 1h swords are the human go-to and 2h swords are the giant go-to.
Posted at 03-02-18, 04:05 pm Link | #6
Wasn't Giant smash damage increased later on? In like G14? Or are you talking about it being calculated 2h damage when they use 2h as 1h?
Posted at 03-03-18, 12:03 pm Link | #7
This gen 2h weapons deal 600% dmg
Later gens made giants default smash deal 600% base dmg and 720% with 2h weapons.
Later gens made giants default smash deal 600% base dmg and 720% with 2h weapons.
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