Authentic Old-School Mabinogi Experience
Literally just a gigantic set of suggestions for re-balance.
Posted at 03-10-17, 07:46 pm Link | #1
I will be updating this list as I remember certain aspects of the game. Each fix/modification will be under a category, making it easy for you to get to where you want to be, and open the spoiler. I know you don't want to read it all. I know. Sh. It's okay.
Filler Text
General Fixes & Events
Premium Item Re-Location
Standard Item Drops/Timers
Archery
Alchemy
Magic
Melee
Future Skill/Classes
Closing and notes on additional/later content:
General Fixes & Events
Premium Item Re-Location
Standard Item Drops/Timers
Archery
Alchemy
Life
Magic
Melee
Future Skill/Classes
Closing and notes on additional/later content:
Posted at 03-10-17, 07:52 pm Link | #2
Posts: 990Some of these are pretty good
Ill keep this in mind
Ill keep this in mind
Posted at 03-10-17, 07:54 pm Link | #3
Ha! I would hope so. Literally spent my entire bit of morning free time before work doing 90% of this from memory. 
Posted at 03-10-17, 08:49 pm Link | #4
Magic and wands, you addressed concern over it restricting spells and such, but what are your thoughts on mana evaporation for unequipping wands atm? Personally, i hate it.
If you want to rebalance windmill training, you absolutely must consider the fact that giants have an easier time training it, because we're melee specialists. Tweak the conditions maybe, reduce the number of mobs required to count as 'multiple kills' with one windmill, and on conversely you may consider lowering xp earned and increasing the total potential max for the condition, say if you were supposed to meet the condition 10x, make it 15x or 20x now. That will keep a sense of balance, and while possibly slowing down the training a little, it will also make it easier as one of the biggest issues with it is the cp conditions. You can't forget though, races do have different training requirements, changing it for one race means you should be considering how to change it for the other races, and why the other races are different. Giants are melee specialists, they're supposed to be more proficient at it, hence easier training.
On to hp loss, this was removed in part, because you lose invincibility frames. If you remove hp loss, you should consider removing invulnerable frames too. R1 wm you can basically just keep spamming wm, even a mob who has defense up right beside you, will give you time to wm and trigger defense, then wm again as long as you don't try to melee them. If i don't have to worry about hp loss, at r1 wm i'm going to be god.
If you're gonna mess with charge, i want more distance for giants to be able to charge, at all ranks. We get shieldless charge anyway, if you're considering making that a feature for other races, we lose one of the major benefits. So i'd really like to see some benefit returned to us. Maybe not necessarily distance, but i lack a better idea atm.
I don't think lances exist yet.
Jumping a bit up on the post, archery. Other than just wounds, you may want to consider stun time, speed, upgrades, and honest knockback ability on each shot. While i say knockback, take note i don't mean actual knock down and stuns. I mean each shot slightly pushing a mob back a bit. You'd apply normal stun time, and during 70-80% of the stun time the mob would slide backwards to its final position. Don't make the slide 100% of stun time, as that would likely cause issues with latency. Possibly make it affected by heavy stander or something.
Stun time is obvious, but you could make it vary greatly for each bow. Tweak the bows themselves some to give varying range stun times, as well as give them the ability to affect skill loading time for bow related skills. Let upgrades further tweak each of the prior mentioned effects.
If bard comes back, lullaby needs carefully monitored. We won't have talents i hope, so reduced effects from music. But that's one skill i'd keep under scrutiny, because it can be all you need to take a deadly situation into a cakewalk.
Fighter... meh. It was king of single target dps back in its introduction. I'm not opposed to respite having the magic penalty removed, i'm rather impartial to the set as a whole.
Keep hybrid skills out, or in gunner and ninja's case they may need nerfed. Without talents, we do not necessarily have the stats to support efficient use of these skillsets. However, gunner and ninja make crowd control a joke. Also bear in mind, introducing skills means we get more base stats as we train them. Power creep, aside from actual skill usage.
Future content, meteor needs a long cool down. Bear in mind, it's actually not mana intensive, given what it is and what it can do, including using it through walls. A rank 1 also is absurdly strong, with special upgrades, and not even using reforges. I would slowly tweak things here and there if you want to adjust it, but if the damage and aoe stays the same, i would not want the cool down reduced.
Inspiration i'd really like, but you'd have to monitor mana shield's efficiency and inspiration's cool down to see how well those two play together. Remember, our mana shield now is different than the one in live mabi. Lightning rod is another cause of concern, absurd burst damage with lowish mana usage and relatively short cool down. Honestly, i think the old inter magics; fireball, thunder, icespear, and possibly even blaze should be considered being adjusted in terms of both cast time and mp usage, should we get newer magic. They don't balance properly, other than they have no cool downs.
I really just want to point out, we are not live mabi. Seeking a balance is what we should be doing. We have a foundation for the game. While the original concept is what will draw old fans, maintaining that balance, but possibly improving it, will be what's likely to keep players.
_________________________
Discord: Tonkatunk#7079
https://github.com/Tonkatunk/Mabi-Pro-Lazyfae-Mods
If you want to rebalance windmill training, you absolutely must consider the fact that giants have an easier time training it, because we're melee specialists. Tweak the conditions maybe, reduce the number of mobs required to count as 'multiple kills' with one windmill, and on conversely you may consider lowering xp earned and increasing the total potential max for the condition, say if you were supposed to meet the condition 10x, make it 15x or 20x now. That will keep a sense of balance, and while possibly slowing down the training a little, it will also make it easier as one of the biggest issues with it is the cp conditions. You can't forget though, races do have different training requirements, changing it for one race means you should be considering how to change it for the other races, and why the other races are different. Giants are melee specialists, they're supposed to be more proficient at it, hence easier training.
On to hp loss, this was removed in part, because you lose invincibility frames. If you remove hp loss, you should consider removing invulnerable frames too. R1 wm you can basically just keep spamming wm, even a mob who has defense up right beside you, will give you time to wm and trigger defense, then wm again as long as you don't try to melee them. If i don't have to worry about hp loss, at r1 wm i'm going to be god.
If you're gonna mess with charge, i want more distance for giants to be able to charge, at all ranks. We get shieldless charge anyway, if you're considering making that a feature for other races, we lose one of the major benefits. So i'd really like to see some benefit returned to us. Maybe not necessarily distance, but i lack a better idea atm.
I don't think lances exist yet.
Jumping a bit up on the post, archery. Other than just wounds, you may want to consider stun time, speed, upgrades, and honest knockback ability on each shot. While i say knockback, take note i don't mean actual knock down and stuns. I mean each shot slightly pushing a mob back a bit. You'd apply normal stun time, and during 70-80% of the stun time the mob would slide backwards to its final position. Don't make the slide 100% of stun time, as that would likely cause issues with latency. Possibly make it affected by heavy stander or something.
Stun time is obvious, but you could make it vary greatly for each bow. Tweak the bows themselves some to give varying range stun times, as well as give them the ability to affect skill loading time for bow related skills. Let upgrades further tweak each of the prior mentioned effects.
If bard comes back, lullaby needs carefully monitored. We won't have talents i hope, so reduced effects from music. But that's one skill i'd keep under scrutiny, because it can be all you need to take a deadly situation into a cakewalk.
Fighter... meh. It was king of single target dps back in its introduction. I'm not opposed to respite having the magic penalty removed, i'm rather impartial to the set as a whole.
Keep hybrid skills out, or in gunner and ninja's case they may need nerfed. Without talents, we do not necessarily have the stats to support efficient use of these skillsets. However, gunner and ninja make crowd control a joke. Also bear in mind, introducing skills means we get more base stats as we train them. Power creep, aside from actual skill usage.
Future content, meteor needs a long cool down. Bear in mind, it's actually not mana intensive, given what it is and what it can do, including using it through walls. A rank 1 also is absurdly strong, with special upgrades, and not even using reforges. I would slowly tweak things here and there if you want to adjust it, but if the damage and aoe stays the same, i would not want the cool down reduced.
Inspiration i'd really like, but you'd have to monitor mana shield's efficiency and inspiration's cool down to see how well those two play together. Remember, our mana shield now is different than the one in live mabi. Lightning rod is another cause of concern, absurd burst damage with lowish mana usage and relatively short cool down. Honestly, i think the old inter magics; fireball, thunder, icespear, and possibly even blaze should be considered being adjusted in terms of both cast time and mp usage, should we get newer magic. They don't balance properly, other than they have no cool downs.
I really just want to point out, we are not live mabi. Seeking a balance is what we should be doing. We have a foundation for the game. While the original concept is what will draw old fans, maintaining that balance, but possibly improving it, will be what's likely to keep players.
_________________________
Discord: Tonkatunk#7079
https://github.com/Tonkatunk/Mabi-Pro-Lazyfae-Mods
Posted at 03-10-17, 09:59 pm Link | #5
If you're going to give unrestricted charge to everyone, then shieldless charge for non-giants should be nerfed , like humans/elves getting less damage reduction when running at ranged attacks. Also, charge negates knockdown and stun on anything ranged related, so charging into a magnum shot wouldn't stop you anyways. Personally I think charge should be granted the ability to run through stuff like bolt magic/basic alchemy but only with a shield on, otherwise those skill would stun like normal.
Windmill using 10% HP in exchange for i-frames is a fair trade off, if you remove the 10% HP cost then you have to get rid of the invincibility as well, like they did on live. Personally I enjoy dodging stuff like fireballs and field boss AoE attacks with strategically applied spinning. As it is right now, if you spam windmill then you aren't allowed to make mistakes since you'll probably be in deadly most of the time.
Personally I don't think wounding makes archery OP, how many mobs actively heal themselves anyways? Glas is probably the exception, but killing the gargoyle spawns and burning their seal scrolls boosts all your attacks to 100% wounding (including magic). It's not like archery is the only thing that can reliably wear down Glas.
All ranged weapons have different stun time and refiring rate based on weapon speed, long bows have more delay in between shots but normal shots carry more stopping power and magnums will put an enemy down for a significant amount of time. Fast weapons like short bows and wing bows don't hit as hard but can spam AR or normal attacks all day long, relying more on knockbacks from repeated hits instead of long stuns like long bows. You'd probably need to overhaul all the ranged weapons to change all of their stun times and refiring rates.
Buffing meditation to post G15 (at least I think it was G15) would also be very good for mages, but adding the modern magic skills can be hard to balance since those were made for post-genesis combat.
I don't mind bard skills, but lullaby and especially battlefield overture can be really strong. Adding those might not be a good idea.
Windmill using 10% HP in exchange for i-frames is a fair trade off, if you remove the 10% HP cost then you have to get rid of the invincibility as well, like they did on live. Personally I enjoy dodging stuff like fireballs and field boss AoE attacks with strategically applied spinning. As it is right now, if you spam windmill then you aren't allowed to make mistakes since you'll probably be in deadly most of the time.
Personally I don't think wounding makes archery OP, how many mobs actively heal themselves anyways? Glas is probably the exception, but killing the gargoyle spawns and burning their seal scrolls boosts all your attacks to 100% wounding (including magic). It's not like archery is the only thing that can reliably wear down Glas.
All ranged weapons have different stun time and refiring rate based on weapon speed, long bows have more delay in between shots but normal shots carry more stopping power and magnums will put an enemy down for a significant amount of time. Fast weapons like short bows and wing bows don't hit as hard but can spam AR or normal attacks all day long, relying more on knockbacks from repeated hits instead of long stuns like long bows. You'd probably need to overhaul all the ranged weapons to change all of their stun times and refiring rates.
Buffing meditation to post G15 (at least I think it was G15) would also be very good for mages, but adding the modern magic skills can be hard to balance since those were made for post-genesis combat.
I don't mind bard skills, but lullaby and especially battlefield overture can be really strong. Adding those might not be a good idea.
Posted at 03-10-17, 10:14 pm Link | #6
Thanks for the good replies! Im at work currently, will address in detail later!
post rev. 1 by Eriul the Wanderer on 03-11-17, 03:45 am
Posted at 03-10-17, 11:41 pm Link | #7
Gear with Age restriction is a stupid thing too, was refered on other posts too, and some magical gear that cannot be upgraded(ala Short/Long Swordmanship uniform)
I like most of the ideas, specially the one for charging without a shield for everyone, but I do agree, some balance must be found if this is to be implemented.
_________________________
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
The more knowledge you get, the more questions you ask. The smarter you get, the more you realize that everything can be possible.
I like most of the ideas, specially the one for charging without a shield for everyone, but I do agree, some balance must be found if this is to be implemented.
_________________________
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
The more knowledge you get, the more questions you ask. The smarter you get, the more you realize that everything can be possible.
Posted at 03-11-17, 12:05 am Link | #8
Range isn't OP because of wound. It's OP cuz of load time. Human mag at best is a 1.5 second load time, which is fair to compensate for aiming. At end game people will just walk up and face the monster anyways. But elf mag gets a whopping .5 second load time. Giant smash loads in 1.6 seconds. So while your giant friend is W+smashing, the elf probably fired off about 4 or 5 shots in the same time. Maybe 1/3 of those missed but it's still better DPS. Personally I believe archery is fine where it is. High risk, high reward.
Posted at 03-11-17, 12:23 am Link | #9
I agree wholeheartedly with these thoughts on Magic. At the moment I feel kind of like the game hates me for being a mage.
Posted at 03-11-17, 12:55 am Link | #10
This first long bit is all about archery. Beware.
How would you balance a removal of miss percentage? Would you make loading the skills take longer? If so, how do you account for Elves (or xbows iirc), who can run while loading a ranged skill? Do you reduce the stun time of each shot? What about damage?
My concern is that many mobs don't have their own answer to an Archer. Some mobs have multi-aggro. A few mobs have Evasion. Defense reduces the stun times, but is ignored by magnum shot (unless they have a shield maybe? It's been a while). For the rest of the mobs however, they've always relied on the fact that maybe you will miss, or maybe you'll take too long aiming to get the best chance you can to hit. If miss chances are removed, these mobs should still retain some chance that they could get in close to an archer.
That isn't to say I'm against removing miss chance. I just think that it might be a difficult challenge to overcome.
Personally, I would like Archers to end up with a sort of playstyle that ends up as consistent single target dps of decent power that requires little preparation. An Archer should be able to control a battle against a single opponent by keeping them at a distance, but should be vulnerable at close range. Aiming and miss chances make this an issue, since aiming while close to an opponent is so fast that point-blank magnum shot spamming is a viable tactic. The fact that you can miss makes your control over the battle against even one opponent an uncertainty. If stun times were reduced or loading times were extended, archers could adapt and then predict whether they can take on a particular enemy while staying safe, and adjust accordingly. With a miss chance, there is too much luck involved.
Okay, moving on from Archery finally.
If Windmill needs a training adjustment, then I also recommend a training adjustment for Refining. Refining is another one of those skills that you sort of have to crank out early or have a terrible time dealing with it later on.
On Magic Chain Casting: I agree that I would love for this to be an actual skill, but I don't think it should be added in willy nilly for the sake of balance. Some sort of trade-off? Because if there isn't any, mages would become incredibly overpowered pretty darn quickly.
On Future Classes... eh? I definitely love Bard, since that compounds on the music part of the game I already love, but why try and re-create these live classes for this server? Like, if we really wanted these classes, why aren't we just playing these classes on live? I personally like the idea of us as a community creating something new for this server much better, if we're hoping for more class options (Very loose and not-thought-out idea, but subclasses maybe? Different types of magic users, or different types of melee combatants? Like a Duelist vs. a Knight? That sort of thing?).
How would you balance a removal of miss percentage? Would you make loading the skills take longer? If so, how do you account for Elves (or xbows iirc), who can run while loading a ranged skill? Do you reduce the stun time of each shot? What about damage?
My concern is that many mobs don't have their own answer to an Archer. Some mobs have multi-aggro. A few mobs have Evasion. Defense reduces the stun times, but is ignored by magnum shot (unless they have a shield maybe? It's been a while). For the rest of the mobs however, they've always relied on the fact that maybe you will miss, or maybe you'll take too long aiming to get the best chance you can to hit. If miss chances are removed, these mobs should still retain some chance that they could get in close to an archer.
That isn't to say I'm against removing miss chance. I just think that it might be a difficult challenge to overcome.
Personally, I would like Archers to end up with a sort of playstyle that ends up as consistent single target dps of decent power that requires little preparation. An Archer should be able to control a battle against a single opponent by keeping them at a distance, but should be vulnerable at close range. Aiming and miss chances make this an issue, since aiming while close to an opponent is so fast that point-blank magnum shot spamming is a viable tactic. The fact that you can miss makes your control over the battle against even one opponent an uncertainty. If stun times were reduced or loading times were extended, archers could adapt and then predict whether they can take on a particular enemy while staying safe, and adjust accordingly. With a miss chance, there is too much luck involved.
Okay, moving on from Archery finally.
If Windmill needs a training adjustment, then I also recommend a training adjustment for Refining. Refining is another one of those skills that you sort of have to crank out early or have a terrible time dealing with it later on.
On Magic Chain Casting: I agree that I would love for this to be an actual skill, but I don't think it should be added in willy nilly for the sake of balance. Some sort of trade-off? Because if there isn't any, mages would become incredibly overpowered pretty darn quickly.
On Future Classes... eh? I definitely love Bard, since that compounds on the music part of the game I already love, but why try and re-create these live classes for this server? Like, if we really wanted these classes, why aren't we just playing these classes on live? I personally like the idea of us as a community creating something new for this server much better, if we're hoping for more class options (Very loose and not-thought-out idea, but subclasses maybe? Different types of magic users, or different types of melee combatants? Like a Duelist vs. a Knight? That sort of thing?).
Posted at 03-11-17, 03:49 am Link | #11
This first long bit is all about archery. Beware.
How would you balance a removal of miss percentage? Would you make loading the skills take longer? If so, how do you account for Elves (or xbows iirc), who can run while loading a ranged skill? Do you reduce the stun time of each shot? What about damage?
My concern is that many mobs don't have their own answer to an Archer. Some mobs have multi-aggro. A few mobs have Evasion. Defense reduces the stun times, but is ignored by magnum shot (unless they have a shield maybe? It's been a while). For the rest of the mobs however, they've always relied on the fact that maybe you will miss, or maybe you'll take too long aiming to get the best chance you can to hit. If miss chances are removed, these mobs should still retain some chance that they could get in close to an archer.
That isn't to say I'm against removing miss chance. I just think that it might be a difficult challenge to overcome.
Personally, I would like Archers to end up with a sort of playstyle that ends up as consistent single target dps of decent power that requires little preparation. An Archer should be able to control a battle against a single opponent by keeping them at a distance, but should be vulnerable at close range. Aiming and miss chances make this an issue, since aiming while close to an opponent is so fast that point-blank magnum shot spamming is a viable tactic. The fact that you can miss makes your control over the battle against even one opponent an uncertainty. If stun times were reduced or loading times were extended, archers could adapt and then predict whether they can take on a particular enemy while staying safe, and adjust accordingly. With a miss chance, there is too much luck involved.
Okay, moving on from Archery finally.
If Windmill needs a training adjustment, then I also recommend a training adjustment for Refining. Refining is another one of those skills that you sort of have to crank out early or have a terrible time dealing with it later on.
On Magic Chain Casting: I agree that I would love for this to be an actual skill, but I don't think it should be added in willy nilly for the sake of balance. Some sort of trade-off? Because if there isn't any, mages would become incredibly overpowered pretty darn quickly.
On Future Classes... eh? I definitely love Bard, since that compounds on the music part of the game I already love, but why try and re-create these live classes for this server? Like, if we really wanted these classes, why aren't we just playing these classes on live? I personally like the idea of us as a community creating something new for this server much better, if we're hoping for more class options (Very loose and not-thought-out idea, but subclasses maybe? Different types of magic users, or different types of melee combatants? Like a Duelist vs. a Knight? That sort of thing?).
How would you balance a removal of miss percentage? Would you make loading the skills take longer? If so, how do you account for Elves (or xbows iirc), who can run while loading a ranged skill? Do you reduce the stun time of each shot? What about damage?
My concern is that many mobs don't have their own answer to an Archer. Some mobs have multi-aggro. A few mobs have Evasion. Defense reduces the stun times, but is ignored by magnum shot (unless they have a shield maybe? It's been a while). For the rest of the mobs however, they've always relied on the fact that maybe you will miss, or maybe you'll take too long aiming to get the best chance you can to hit. If miss chances are removed, these mobs should still retain some chance that they could get in close to an archer.
That isn't to say I'm against removing miss chance. I just think that it might be a difficult challenge to overcome.
Personally, I would like Archers to end up with a sort of playstyle that ends up as consistent single target dps of decent power that requires little preparation. An Archer should be able to control a battle against a single opponent by keeping them at a distance, but should be vulnerable at close range. Aiming and miss chances make this an issue, since aiming while close to an opponent is so fast that point-blank magnum shot spamming is a viable tactic. The fact that you can miss makes your control over the battle against even one opponent an uncertainty. If stun times were reduced or loading times were extended, archers could adapt and then predict whether they can take on a particular enemy while staying safe, and adjust accordingly. With a miss chance, there is too much luck involved.
Okay, moving on from Archery finally.
If Windmill needs a training adjustment, then I also recommend a training adjustment for Refining. Refining is another one of those skills that you sort of have to crank out early or have a terrible time dealing with it later on.
On Magic Chain Casting: I agree that I would love for this to be an actual skill, but I don't think it should be added in willy nilly for the sake of balance. Some sort of trade-off? Because if there isn't any, mages would become incredibly overpowered pretty darn quickly.
On Future Classes... eh? I definitely love Bard, since that compounds on the music part of the game I already love, but why try and re-create these live classes for this server? Like, if we really wanted these classes, why aren't we just playing these classes on live? I personally like the idea of us as a community creating something new for this server much better, if we're hoping for more class options (Very loose and not-thought-out idea, but subclasses maybe? Different types of magic users, or different types of melee combatants? Like a Duelist vs. a Knight? That sort of thing?).
I haven't played on live since G12, so I can't say anything, but given a lot of people hate what's going on the live servers, I'd say, bring the good, leave the bad there?
The Bard skills I've seen on the wiki seem cool, Lullaby seems OP to say the truth.
_________________________
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
The more knowledge you get, the more questions you ask. The smarter you get, the more you realize that everything can be possible.
Posted at 03-11-17, 01:30 pm Link | #12
I haven't played on live since G12, so I can't say anything, but given a lot of people hate what's going on the live servers, I'd say, bring the good, leave the bad there?
The Bard skills I've seen on the wiki seem cool, Lullaby seems OP to say the truth.
The Bard skills I've seen on the wiki seem cool, Lullaby seems OP to say the truth.
Live used a talent system too. Train a skillset enough, get permanent buffs usually related to the skillset. In bard's case, you train enough, one of the buffs is permanent increase to related skills, ie music. This extends the duration of things like lullaby. Tack on some enchants and instrument upgrades, it's further increased. If you take out all the modifiers, lullaby itself may not be so bad at r1, but sure of actually seeing it in action with our current setup, i wouldn't want to jump the fence yet, so to speak. It'd be something that i wouldn't mind seeing on a trial basis, and either tweaked or removed as needed, to keep up with the balance of other skills and mobs.
_________________________
Discord: Tonkatunk#7079
https://github.com/Tonkatunk/Mabi-Pro-Lazyfae-Mods
Posted at 03-11-17, 03:26 pm Link | #13
On Future Classes... eh? I definitely love Bard, since that compounds on the music part of the game I already love, but why try and re-create these live classes for this server? Like, if we really wanted these classes, why aren't we just playing these classes on live? I personally like the idea of us as a community creating something new for this server much better, if we're hoping for more class options (Very loose and not-thought-out idea, but subclasses maybe? Different types of magic users, or different types of melee combatants? Like a Duelist vs. a Knight? That sort of thing?).
I haven't played on live since G12, so I can't say anything, but given a lot of people hate what's going on the live servers, I'd say, bring the good, leave the bad there?
The Bard skills I've seen on the wiki seem cool, Lullaby seems OP to say the truth.
That's a good point. I apologize for effectively saying "go play live" since I too have been upset at the pay-to-win mentality among other things (power creep, etc). I was pretty tired when I wrote this, but that isn't really an excuse.
What I had really wanted to get across was the fact that during the span between g13s2 (when this server is) and live, dynamic combat was introduced. All of the classes that are on live use dynamic combat. Do we want to try and translate the classes we don't have not only just from live to this server, but also from dynamic combat to traditional combat? It sounds like it would be very, very tricky. Do we want to try and re-create dynamic combat? That sounds like it would be even more tricky, and also possibly controversial (very mixed reviews on dynamic combat, apparently). This is also all assuming that the programming know-how to even attempt any of these options is available to us. From an uninformed perspective, Bard seems feasible, but Puppeteer? Ninja?
I'm not against trying to add classes that have the same theme as those on live. A MabiPro kind of Ninja or whatever would be pretty cool, but to expect that MabiPro's Ninja would function exactly the same as live's Ninja might be a bit too much to ask for.
My suggestion for "subclasses", or whatever in the world you may wish to call them, was to instead focus on building off of the systems we already have available to us, rather than trying to create whole new systems. A Duelist, for example, would still be a melee warrior, but would just be a different kind of warrior. Maybe it would rely on dexterity in some way beyond just balance and specialize in using light armor. Skills could be added onto the current melee system to compliment that sort of playstyle. The "subclass" idea just sounded like a much more feasible option to go for, in my opinion.
Posted at 03-11-17, 04:27 pm Link | #14
I'd like to preface my reply with the fact that I've not actively played Mabinogi in about 3 years, and that my current character on this server is about level 20 due to lack of free time. A lot of the things you brought up were things I had simply forgotten existed, and I will add them to my original post -hopefully- if I get time after work today.
Whew. Time for work again. Management. Long hours, decent pay, no free time. T^T
Mana Evaporation: Needs to be removed. Forgot this dumb monstrosity was even a thing.
Giants have an easier time training it, because we're melee specialists: True. I was mostly talking about reducing the grind scaling, due to the ridiculous amount of kills that you need to get to rank it up. If you know what you're doing, and cap WM first, it's super easy. If you hit level 300 total before you realize you need it, you're probably f*cked for good. Your suggestion should be implemented for testing:
Invulnerability Frames: Forgot these existed. If that's the case, I'd like to see the HP% scale with how much max HP you have. The more HP you have, the higher the %. You have 400hp, it goes at 10% of total HP. You have 200hp, it's 5% of total HP. 10% may mean that you can WM 10 times before you go deadly, but for new players with low HP, WMing 3-5 times in short succession makes you essentially deadly due to the fact you've only got about 25HP left.
More distance for giants to be able to charge at all ranks: Maybe not distance. Damage reduction increase maybe? Mobility is something that already needs to be addressed, in it's own thread. Mobility is a vastly broken and abusable mechanic. Also, if you take a look at each race page on the Mabinogi Wiki, you can't argue that adding shieldless charge to every race is really going to make the giant any weaker as melee specialists. That's a hell of a lot of positives. But if we bring mobility in line for all races, we may be able to address the weaknesses of other races, bringing Giant's magic weaknesses in line with humans, or giving elves a little more combat ability to bump them up to near-human level. From here, it's all about race-unique skills differentiating them. Giants will still be known as tanky bruisers, elves still as magical arrow fairies, and humans as versatile and able to perform either task.
I don't think lances exist yet. Level 20. Murdering wolves in south Tir Chonail.
Jumping a bit up on the post, archery. Other than just wounds, you may want to consider stun time, speed, upgrades, and honest knockback ability on each shot. While i say knockback, take note i don't mean actual knock down and stuns. I mean each shot slightly pushing a mob back a bit. You'd apply normal stun time, and during 70-80% of the stun time the mob would slide backwards to its final position. Don't make the slide 100% of stun time, as that would likely cause issues with latency. Possibly make it affected by heavy stander or something. Yes, these would require testing. I didn't mean for aim time to remain the same, I figured that would be obviously broken. Stun time, it could work a little closer to Gunslinger's stuns. But as I said, requires testing. They might be better as high-DPS slow load skills with the same stun, or they might be better as moderate-DPS medium-load skills with short stun.
Stun time is obvious, but you could make it vary greatly for each bow. Tweak the bows themselves some to give varying range stun times, as well as give them the ability to affect skill loading time for bow related skills. Let upgrades further tweak each of the prior mentioned effects. This adds an effect of hidden power to weapons. Someone playing on a low end PC might not be able to tell the difference between a LB and a LLB while being arrow revolver-ed into a corner. Stun time needs to be universal, if it can be modified by enchants or upgrades and each bow has a different amount of stun, then there WILL be one bow to rule them all, causing all future balance to revolve around THAT bow.
If bard comes back, lullaby needs carefully monitored. We won't have talents i hope, so reduced effects from music. But that's one skill i'd keep under scrutiny, because it can be all you need to take a deadly situation into a cakewalk. Yes.
Fighter... meh. It was king of single target dps back in its introduction. I'm not opposed to respite having the magic penalty removed, i'm rather impartial to the set as a whole.
Keep hybrid skills out, or in gunner and ninja's case they may need nerfed. Without talents, we do not necessarily have the stats to support efficient use of these skillsets. However, gunner and ninja make crowd control a joke. Also bear in mind, introducing skills means we get more base stats as we train them. Power creep, aside from actual skill usage. If we assign Alchemy an end-game stat, and a stat with levels, we should bring in two more classes to utilize the other two stats. Hybrid skills should never have existed, and should have only had one stat to scale off. I was a well-set mage on live, picked up a pair of pistols and was just obliterated any opponents that weren't in Elite+ with Rank F skills. I would personally put Fighter on Dex or Str, Bard on Int or Dex, Gunner on Int or Str. Adding these classes gives a direction for players to go after they cap one set of skills, and puts their previous stats to good use.
Future content, meteor needs a long cool down. Bear in mind, it's actually not mana intensive, given what it is and what it can do, including using it through walls. A rank 1 also is absurdly strong, with special upgrades, and not even using reforges. I would slowly tweak things here and there if you want to adjust it, but if the damage and aoe stays the same, i would not want the cool down reduced. I would say make it Mana intensive. I could understand a CD of maybe 5m from impact to 10m, but hours? That's crazy talk. Especially when it comes to training the skill. My Thunder did Meteor's job better and more reliably than Meteor, but I was already R1 on that. Hailstorm has pretty much zero CD, but I was still hitting 20k damage per ball of ice. Sure it wasn't a huge AOE, but the spammability gave me more DPS in the long run.
Inspiration i'd really like, but you'd have to monitor mana shield's efficiency and inspiration's cool down to see how well those two play together. Remember, our mana shield now is different than the one in live mabi. I don't think, as a mage, I would like this one. I'd rather have buffed meditation. I could understand maybe a channeled effect that draws in mana from your opponents around you (similar to Boss Life Drain) that deals little or no HP damage, only draws aggro and restores your mana. You can't just fart out some mana and take a deep whiff through the nostrils to restore a chunk of your bar at once. That makes no sense.
Lightning rod is another cause of concern, absurd burst damage with lowish mana usage and relatively short cool down. Honestly, i think the old inter magics; fireball, thunder, icespear, and possibly even blaze should be considered being adjusted in terms of both cast time and mp usage, should we get newer magic. They don't balance properly, other than they have no cool downs. Looked at lightning rod skill videos. Looks dumb. Wow Ice Spear 2: Lightning Edition. Way to creative Devcat. Better idea would have just been to give mages Shock, or summon a Storm Cloud that continuously deals lightning damage to enemies in the area. I don't want this skill.
I really just want to point out, we are not live mabi. Seeking a balance is what we should be doing. We have a foundation for the game. While the original concept is what will draw old fans, maintaining that balance, but possibly improving it, will be what's likely to keep players.
Giants have an easier time training it, because we're melee specialists: True. I was mostly talking about reducing the grind scaling, due to the ridiculous amount of kills that you need to get to rank it up. If you know what you're doing, and cap WM first, it's super easy. If you hit level 300 total before you realize you need it, you're probably f*cked for good. Your suggestion should be implemented for testing:
Invulnerability Frames: Forgot these existed. If that's the case, I'd like to see the HP% scale with how much max HP you have. The more HP you have, the higher the %. You have 400hp, it goes at 10% of total HP. You have 200hp, it's 5% of total HP. 10% may mean that you can WM 10 times before you go deadly, but for new players with low HP, WMing 3-5 times in short succession makes you essentially deadly due to the fact you've only got about 25HP left.
More distance for giants to be able to charge at all ranks: Maybe not distance. Damage reduction increase maybe? Mobility is something that already needs to be addressed, in it's own thread. Mobility is a vastly broken and abusable mechanic. Also, if you take a look at each race page on the Mabinogi Wiki, you can't argue that adding shieldless charge to every race is really going to make the giant any weaker as melee specialists. That's a hell of a lot of positives. But if we bring mobility in line for all races, we may be able to address the weaknesses of other races, bringing Giant's magic weaknesses in line with humans, or giving elves a little more combat ability to bump them up to near-human level. From here, it's all about race-unique skills differentiating them. Giants will still be known as tanky bruisers, elves still as magical arrow fairies, and humans as versatile and able to perform either task.
I don't think lances exist yet. Level 20. Murdering wolves in south Tir Chonail.
Jumping a bit up on the post, archery. Other than just wounds, you may want to consider stun time, speed, upgrades, and honest knockback ability on each shot. While i say knockback, take note i don't mean actual knock down and stuns. I mean each shot slightly pushing a mob back a bit. You'd apply normal stun time, and during 70-80% of the stun time the mob would slide backwards to its final position. Don't make the slide 100% of stun time, as that would likely cause issues with latency. Possibly make it affected by heavy stander or something. Yes, these would require testing. I didn't mean for aim time to remain the same, I figured that would be obviously broken. Stun time, it could work a little closer to Gunslinger's stuns. But as I said, requires testing. They might be better as high-DPS slow load skills with the same stun, or they might be better as moderate-DPS medium-load skills with short stun.
Stun time is obvious, but you could make it vary greatly for each bow. Tweak the bows themselves some to give varying range stun times, as well as give them the ability to affect skill loading time for bow related skills. Let upgrades further tweak each of the prior mentioned effects. This adds an effect of hidden power to weapons. Someone playing on a low end PC might not be able to tell the difference between a LB and a LLB while being arrow revolver-ed into a corner. Stun time needs to be universal, if it can be modified by enchants or upgrades and each bow has a different amount of stun, then there WILL be one bow to rule them all, causing all future balance to revolve around THAT bow.
If bard comes back, lullaby needs carefully monitored. We won't have talents i hope, so reduced effects from music. But that's one skill i'd keep under scrutiny, because it can be all you need to take a deadly situation into a cakewalk. Yes.
Fighter... meh. It was king of single target dps back in its introduction. I'm not opposed to respite having the magic penalty removed, i'm rather impartial to the set as a whole.
Keep hybrid skills out, or in gunner and ninja's case they may need nerfed. Without talents, we do not necessarily have the stats to support efficient use of these skillsets. However, gunner and ninja make crowd control a joke. Also bear in mind, introducing skills means we get more base stats as we train them. Power creep, aside from actual skill usage. If we assign Alchemy an end-game stat, and a stat with levels, we should bring in two more classes to utilize the other two stats. Hybrid skills should never have existed, and should have only had one stat to scale off. I was a well-set mage on live, picked up a pair of pistols and was just obliterated any opponents that weren't in Elite+ with Rank F skills. I would personally put Fighter on Dex or Str, Bard on Int or Dex, Gunner on Int or Str. Adding these classes gives a direction for players to go after they cap one set of skills, and puts their previous stats to good use.
Future content, meteor needs a long cool down. Bear in mind, it's actually not mana intensive, given what it is and what it can do, including using it through walls. A rank 1 also is absurdly strong, with special upgrades, and not even using reforges. I would slowly tweak things here and there if you want to adjust it, but if the damage and aoe stays the same, i would not want the cool down reduced. I would say make it Mana intensive. I could understand a CD of maybe 5m from impact to 10m, but hours? That's crazy talk. Especially when it comes to training the skill. My Thunder did Meteor's job better and more reliably than Meteor, but I was already R1 on that. Hailstorm has pretty much zero CD, but I was still hitting 20k damage per ball of ice. Sure it wasn't a huge AOE, but the spammability gave me more DPS in the long run.
Inspiration i'd really like, but you'd have to monitor mana shield's efficiency and inspiration's cool down to see how well those two play together. Remember, our mana shield now is different than the one in live mabi. I don't think, as a mage, I would like this one. I'd rather have buffed meditation. I could understand maybe a channeled effect that draws in mana from your opponents around you (similar to Boss Life Drain) that deals little or no HP damage, only draws aggro and restores your mana. You can't just fart out some mana and take a deep whiff through the nostrils to restore a chunk of your bar at once. That makes no sense.
Lightning rod is another cause of concern, absurd burst damage with lowish mana usage and relatively short cool down. Honestly, i think the old inter magics; fireball, thunder, icespear, and possibly even blaze should be considered being adjusted in terms of both cast time and mp usage, should we get newer magic. They don't balance properly, other than they have no cool downs. Looked at lightning rod skill videos. Looks dumb. Wow Ice Spear 2: Lightning Edition. Way to creative Devcat. Better idea would have just been to give mages Shock, or summon a Storm Cloud that continuously deals lightning damage to enemies in the area. I don't want this skill.
I really just want to point out, we are not live mabi. Seeking a balance is what we should be doing. We have a foundation for the game. While the original concept is what will draw old fans, maintaining that balance, but possibly improving it, will be what's likely to keep players.
Whew. Time for work again. Management. Long hours, decent pay, no free time. T^T
Posted at 03-11-17, 07:23 pm Link | #15
I could understand maybe a channeled effect that draws in mana from your opponents around you (similar to Boss Life Drain) that deals little or no HP damage, only draws aggro and restores your mana.
Posted at 03-11-17, 08:08 pm Link | #16
This adds an effect of hidden power to weapons. Someone playing on a low end PC might not be able to tell the difference between a LB and a LLB while being arrow revolver-ed into a corner. Stun time needs to be universal, if it can be modified by enchants or upgrades and each bow has a different amount of stun, then there WILL be one bow to rule them all, causing all future balance to revolve around THAT bow.
Not necessarily. Keep in mind, i didn't request solely for stun to be reviewed and nothing else. There are many potential factors i mentioned for bows, but tweaking one without taking another into consideration can leave you wanting.
If we assign Alchemy an end-game stat, and a stat with levels, we should bring in two more classes to utilize the other two stats. Hybrid skills should never have existed, and should have only had one stat to scale off. I was a well-set mage on live, picked up a pair of pistols and was just obliterated any opponents that weren't in Elite+ with Rank F skills. I would personally put Fighter on Dex or Str, Bard on Int or Dex, Gunner on Int or Str. Adding these classes gives a direction for players to go after they cap one set of skills, and puts their previous stats to good use.
You may not necessarily need to remove the hybrid stat buff. Again, we don't have talents like live, or all the skills like live. Our stats are only a fraction of live. This alone will severely nerf the skills' potential. You could also slightly tweak the damage formula for these weapons, to follow suit. Weaken them even further. Say rather than 3 in a stat for one damage, you up it to 5 of a stat for one damage. It would give incentive to train other stats, making players want to branch into other skill trees for those stats, and thus increasing diversity.
I would say make it Mana intensive. I could understand a CD of maybe 5m from impact to 10m, but hours? That's crazy talk. Especially when it comes to training the skill. My Thunder did Meteor's job better and more reliably than Meteor, but I was already R1 on that. Hailstorm has pretty much zero CD, but I was still hitting 20k damage per ball of ice. Sure it wasn't a huge AOE, but the spammability gave me more DPS in the long run.
Have you trained meteor to r1? I have, think i actually have most if not all of my magic skills capped aside from 3 of the shields. Thunder wasn't as versatile any more, fireball outperformed it the majority of the time. I only really used thunder for rafting i believe. Meteor though, according to wiki it's a 15 minute cool down. At r1 it has like a 1,000m radius or something. And then the actual attack itself, well mine was doing 40-50k's i think, don't honestly remember other than it being absurdly high. It's both physical and magical, so a mob immune to only one of those things, will still take some damage. Then there's the fire left behind, that will damage for a few ticks. Meteor was less about dps, it was more for the sake of killing things, or inflicting extreme damage, before ever getting near them. Most HM and several elite bosses, could be taken out with one crit meteor. I used it scath lord missions, to kill the ghosts by the boss, before approaching. And it always one shot, even without crit, on the ghosts.
I'd rather have buffed meditation. I could understand maybe a channeled effect that draws in mana from your opponents around you (similar to Boss Life Drain) that deals little or no HP damage, only draws aggro and restores your mana. You can't just fart out some mana and take a deep whiff through the nostrils to restore a chunk of your bar at once. That makes no sense.
Personally, even a buffed meditate would frustrate me. I'lll dip into magic at some point, but i will use it more on necessity or to help balance out a party, than because i enjoy it. Most the time i'm more likely to just use all my mp to heal party members. As such, it means i'll be constantly walking, or toggling meditate on/off all the time to compensate. So for someone like me, i'm likely to spend most my time ignoring a buffed meditate, just cuz it wouldn't honestly be worth the trouble even after ranking, short of making it gamebreakingly good.
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Discord: Tonkatunk#7079
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Posted at 03-12-17, 08:23 pm Link | #17
No to the chain casting skill. It will make wand upgrades, and wand egos obsolete. So yeah... no.
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its far too easy to get r1 wm with the 4x combat training now, and the windmill with no hp loss would just make it even more imbalanced
elemental shields have effective use in PvP
ideas post G12 should not be implemented because nexon's dev team was changed and the game started going entirely downhill because they had no idea what they were doing, new content added to the server should be independent from the live version similar to the way oldschool runescape does it
5. Elemental Shields
*I always thought this should be like a passive buff to party members. Casting it temporarily increases party members resistance to an elemental damage. These were added to alleviate headache from ranged attacks, and to reduce damage from Dragon/powerful enemy breath attacks, but their clunky charge up time, area of effect, and lack of mobility make them inefficient at best.
*I always thought this should be like a passive buff to party members. Casting it temporarily increases party members resistance to an elemental damage. These were added to alleviate headache from ranged attacks, and to reduce damage from Dragon/powerful enemy breath attacks, but their clunky charge up time, area of effect, and lack of mobility make them inefficient at best.
elemental shields have effective use in PvP
classes
ideas post G12 should not be implemented because nexon's dev team was changed and the game started going entirely downhill because they had no idea what they were doing, new content added to the server should be independent from the live version similar to the way oldschool runescape does it
Posted at 03-12-17, 09:32 pm Link | #20
I'm going to have to disagree on some points regarding magic.
1) No chain casting skill, please. As stated before, it would make wand upgrades/egos pointless, and quite frankly, I can only see it as a pretty broken skill in the hands of a magic warrior. Don't get me started on chain casting int magic either. As for alchemists, keep in mind that they're limited to their stock of crystals, and from my understanding, don't get any stat buffs unlike mages. This is also the era where alchemists need to MAKE certain crystals for things like golems, life drain, and so on...
2) This is a bit opinionated, but I must boldly state that we shouldn't remove mana evaporation either. Allowing bolts to be used as an easy hybrid skill is one thing, but for something as powerful as chain casting or int magic, I feel like a mage should then commit themself to their class; otherwise, I feel like being able to switch between a wand and any other weapon could open up the door to some broken strategies.
NOW, some points I DO agree on, and some ideas I'd like to pitch in concerning magic...
1) Meditation regen should be based on the live servers, right now it's pretty useless, and without it MP takes a while to recover without potions or a mana tunnel.
2) *Maybe* bring the inspiration skill in here as well, but it should still require a magic weapon to use (And again, mana evaporation imo should remain in this case), Then some pressure can be taken off wand users. And with mana evaporation in place, only wand users will be able to use this upkeep their mana shield.
Lastly, I will say that I have a neutral standing for mana shield's degenerating effect. I will also say that something definitely needs to be done about the magic shields, but I'll leave that up for others to discuss for now.
1) No chain casting skill, please. As stated before, it would make wand upgrades/egos pointless, and quite frankly, I can only see it as a pretty broken skill in the hands of a magic warrior. Don't get me started on chain casting int magic either. As for alchemists, keep in mind that they're limited to their stock of crystals, and from my understanding, don't get any stat buffs unlike mages. This is also the era where alchemists need to MAKE certain crystals for things like golems, life drain, and so on...
2) This is a bit opinionated, but I must boldly state that we shouldn't remove mana evaporation either. Allowing bolts to be used as an easy hybrid skill is one thing, but for something as powerful as chain casting or int magic, I feel like a mage should then commit themself to their class; otherwise, I feel like being able to switch between a wand and any other weapon could open up the door to some broken strategies.
NOW, some points I DO agree on, and some ideas I'd like to pitch in concerning magic...
1) Meditation regen should be based on the live servers, right now it's pretty useless, and without it MP takes a while to recover without potions or a mana tunnel.
2) *Maybe* bring the inspiration skill in here as well, but it should still require a magic weapon to use (And again, mana evaporation imo should remain in this case), Then some pressure can be taken off wand users. And with mana evaporation in place, only wand users will be able to use this upkeep their mana shield.
Lastly, I will say that I have a neutral standing for mana shield's degenerating effect. I will also say that something definitely needs to be done about the magic shields, but I'll leave that up for others to discuss for now.
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