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ideas post G12 should not be implemented because nexon's dev team was changed and the game started going entirely downhill because they had no idea what they were doing...
I'd like to point out, things like pots, feathers, bandages, and a few other things had their max stack size increased. Some skills had the caps removed or raised, auto-queuing items into a production form was added, inventory auto-organize was added, tagging bags for when you pick up new items was added. The list goes on.
Post g12 does not necessarily make every idea bad. Yes, they should be closely monitored or modified possibly, but flat out refusing them based on the premise not of balance or how it affects the game, but that it was post g12, is not what you want.
Switching off that topic.
I will bring up the topic of mana evaportation for giants being a big issue for something like peaca. Wights are fully immune to physical, our throwing attack has a nasty cool down. I'm sure you can imagine the results for a giant in peaca, so i'll leave it at that. My opinion, i really want to do away with evaporation regardless, but w/e happens, happens.
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Posted at 03-13-17, 03:43 am Link | #22
I will bring up the topic of mana evaportation for giants being a big issue for something like peaca. Wights are fully immune to physical, our throwing attack has a nasty cool down. I'm sure you can imagine the results for a giant in peaca, so i'll leave it at that. My opinion, i really want to do away with evaporation regardless, but w/e happens, happens.
That's a problem if you're trying to solo; one could argue that Peaca is *meant* to be done as a party, with everyone focusing on their specialties. Aside from that however, there's still the issue I brought up over how removing mana evaporation could impact the overall balance of the game, in favor of magic users and hybrids. I don't think citing giants soloing Peaca alone bears enough justification for it's removal.
It didn't impact the balance that way on live, so, no. Magic is still an enormous AP investment and currently feels extremely limited in what you're allowed to do with it, compared to any other skill set in the game - removing evaporation would help bring it more up to speed with other things, as it's pretty behind on usability right now. Keeping up a potion supply, bad Meditation, wand evaporation, astronomical wand repair costs, inaccessibility of staves, the challenge of unlocking the powerful spells in the first place... being a mage right now is an extreme hassle even if you're committed to it. And you have to be if you want it to be useful. Putting up with all those things, I'm still immediately outclassed by the first person to walk up with r1 windmill. (Yes, the training is a pain, but does it have all that upkeep? Heck no.)
Posted at 03-13-17, 05:01 am Link | #24
And again, I was suggesting that we should modernize the regen for meditation, and implement inspiration; that I'm sure would address your concern regarding potions. As for wand repairs, is it not possible to just make them cheaper so you're not burning a hole in your wallet? Lastly, can you explain why freely switching out your wand is essential for balancing magic with the other classes?
[Posted by shogungari on 03-13-17, 05:07 am, deleted by shogungari]
- #935
Posted at 03-13-17, 05:11 am Link | #26
Just so you know, I used to main magic back on the live servers during the alchemy era. I collected all 3 intermediate spells, and had a wand for each spell and each chain casting style. Part of the game was figuring out which spell would be most effective for the scenario I was being put in, and I would plan accordingly. You've got some valid points regarding upkeep and AP, but I just don't think we should outright remove mana evaporation without considering any alternatives.
Because any other class can freely switch out their weapons without demolishing their skill usage capability. I'm sure other classes wouldn't like losing all their stamina whenever they swap weapons. Want to switch from your water cylinder to clay, in order to summon a golem? No way, drink pots. Want to switch your bow for a sword because this enemy pings range? Too bad, drink pots. Did I mention you can't buy those pots in stores now either? That's what other skill sets would look like if the field was evened out with mages.
Posted at 03-13-17, 05:49 am Link | #28
Also consider the fact that any single int spell is pretty destructive on its own in the hands of a well-trained mage; with the damage, the AoE, and the fact that you can use them from a safe distance. Again, I fail to see how removing mana evaporation really gives the balance mages need, versus the ideas I've been trying to throw out there.
My point is, I think there should be something that benefits those who are commited to magic, without making them too overpowered. And I believe they could benefit more from having inspiration; at which point I would say mana evaporation should stay (Because then skills like mana shield would easily get abused). That, and boosting meditation/lowering repair costs.
My point is, I think there should be something that benefits those who are commited to magic, without making them too overpowered. And I believe they could benefit more from having inspiration; at which point I would say mana evaporation should stay (Because then skills like mana shield would easily get abused). That, and boosting meditation/lowering repair costs.
Posted at 03-13-17, 06:05 am Link | #29
I could live with evaporation a little more easily with those other fixes in place, yeah. Inspiration could help counteract it in that situation.
Posted at 03-13-17, 02:36 pm Link | #30
One of my biggest grumps atm, is the conversation is revolving solely around mages. Make no mistake, on live i may have pretty much all magic done, and my int easily sits at 1.2k+. However, i am not a mage, even if i do use magic regularly. By saying mage, you're implying usage of magic only, or keeping a wand out all the time.
I prize versatility and survivability above all else. I start off with building on those, so that i can handle myself solo in most situations that i'll put myself in, even if i don't kill fast. For this very reason, i fully intend to rank magic on this server, even though i'm giant. No, i won't be a mage, but yes if mana evaporation were done away with, i would likely use magic regularly aside from bolts. I have a feeling many others would as well.
However, at the moment, the only real reason i'd touch magic is to train it, or for an enemy who is melee immune. And if i have a party, i'm far far less likely to do the latter. Bolts are a part of my combat style, and i heal as i have mp, and generally keep bandages for if a party member requests it or i think they honestly need them. Quite simply, in a party i won't be willing to switch to a wand for magic, cuz the heavy mp drain on spells will be bad enough, but mana evaporation is just horrible. I won't want to chug pots to cast spells, only to lose like 50% of my max mp or something, when my target dies and i have no more use for the wand. It's a waste of pots, time, and/or gold. I'll let the party handle the mob, unless they're literally incapable of killing one mob within 5 mins. And i'm more likely to bolt spam to assist, rather than int magic.
I'm not asking to be able to solo peaca. But i just want it clear that, not everyone who wants to use a wand falls into the mage category. Nor will they have a high mp pool or large supply of pots to deal with the heavy drain of mp for switching in and out of a wand regularly. The mana evaporation emphasizes the mage role, but in return deters most everyone else but mages, from wanting to use magic regularly.
You want mana evaporation to stay, sure, i won't argue that, as long as you at least understand where i'm coming from, in not only are mages the ones who are concerned with the feature, and the impact it will have on parties as a whole, as you'll see people like me who won't pull out a wand to help unless absolutely necessary, even if it means doing little to no damage.
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I prize versatility and survivability above all else. I start off with building on those, so that i can handle myself solo in most situations that i'll put myself in, even if i don't kill fast. For this very reason, i fully intend to rank magic on this server, even though i'm giant. No, i won't be a mage, but yes if mana evaporation were done away with, i would likely use magic regularly aside from bolts. I have a feeling many others would as well.
However, at the moment, the only real reason i'd touch magic is to train it, or for an enemy who is melee immune. And if i have a party, i'm far far less likely to do the latter. Bolts are a part of my combat style, and i heal as i have mp, and generally keep bandages for if a party member requests it or i think they honestly need them. Quite simply, in a party i won't be willing to switch to a wand for magic, cuz the heavy mp drain on spells will be bad enough, but mana evaporation is just horrible. I won't want to chug pots to cast spells, only to lose like 50% of my max mp or something, when my target dies and i have no more use for the wand. It's a waste of pots, time, and/or gold. I'll let the party handle the mob, unless they're literally incapable of killing one mob within 5 mins. And i'm more likely to bolt spam to assist, rather than int magic.
I'm not asking to be able to solo peaca. But i just want it clear that, not everyone who wants to use a wand falls into the mage category. Nor will they have a high mp pool or large supply of pots to deal with the heavy drain of mp for switching in and out of a wand regularly. The mana evaporation emphasizes the mage role, but in return deters most everyone else but mages, from wanting to use magic regularly.
You want mana evaporation to stay, sure, i won't argue that, as long as you at least understand where i'm coming from, in not only are mages the ones who are concerned with the feature, and the impact it will have on parties as a whole, as you'll see people like me who won't pull out a wand to help unless absolutely necessary, even if it means doing little to no damage.
_________________________
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https://github.com/Tonkatunk/Mabi-Pro-Lazyfae-Mods
Posted at 03-14-17, 01:22 am Link | #31
Mana evaporation has GOT to go. It has no place in the game. It does not make sense thematically or balance-wise, based on whether the player is or is not a "Mage".
BALANCE:
Except every other class (aside from Archery) can match current Magic DPS. Every other class including Archery can utilize other weapons with no resource penalty. Every other class can use all of their DPS-intensive skills with their primary equipment.
THEME:
Mana is something that flows around, and through you. You channel mana from your body, though the wand, and into forming magic in front of your face. The wand is just a focus, it is not injecting needles into your hand and suckling out your Mana, or reverse-flowing the element into your body. Mana exits your body, enters the wand, and creates a spell. Mana not used is STILL IN YOUR BODY. Otherwise, when equipping a wand, your mana would be sucked into the wand and you would effectively have zero mana forever because the wand was constantly draining you until you put it down.
Epsilon, whatever tree you're barking up is the wrong one.
BALANCE:
Except every other class (aside from Archery) can match current Magic DPS. Every other class including Archery can utilize other weapons with no resource penalty. Every other class can use all of their DPS-intensive skills with their primary equipment.
THEME:
Mana is something that flows around, and through you. You channel mana from your body, though the wand, and into forming magic in front of your face. The wand is just a focus, it is not injecting needles into your hand and suckling out your Mana, or reverse-flowing the element into your body. Mana exits your body, enters the wand, and creates a spell. Mana not used is STILL IN YOUR BODY. Otherwise, when equipping a wand, your mana would be sucked into the wand and you would effectively have zero mana forever because the wand was constantly draining you until you put it down.
Epsilon, whatever tree you're barking up is the wrong one.
Posted at 03-14-17, 01:33 am Link | #32
Mana evaporation has GOT to go. It has no place in the game. It does not make sense thematically or balance-wise, based on whether the player is or is not a "Mage".
BALANCE:
Except every other class (aside from Archery) can match current Magic DPS. Every other class including Archery can utilize other weapons with no resource penalty. Every other class can use all of their DPS-intensive skills with their primary equipment.
THEME:
Mana is something that flows around, and through you. You channel mana from your body, though the wand, and into forming magic in front of your face. The wand is just a focus, it is not injecting needles into your hand and suckling out your Mana, or reverse-flowing the element into your body. Mana exits your body, enters the wand, and creates a spell. Mana not used is STILL IN YOUR BODY. Otherwise, when equipping a wand, your mana would be sucked into the wand and you would effectively have zero mana forever because the wand was constantly draining you until you put it down.
Epsilon, whatever tree you're barking up is the wrong one.
BALANCE:
Except every other class (aside from Archery) can match current Magic DPS. Every other class including Archery can utilize other weapons with no resource penalty. Every other class can use all of their DPS-intensive skills with their primary equipment.
THEME:
Mana is something that flows around, and through you. You channel mana from your body, though the wand, and into forming magic in front of your face. The wand is just a focus, it is not injecting needles into your hand and suckling out your Mana, or reverse-flowing the element into your body. Mana exits your body, enters the wand, and creates a spell. Mana not used is STILL IN YOUR BODY. Otherwise, when equipping a wand, your mana would be sucked into the wand and you would effectively have zero mana forever because the wand was constantly draining you until you put it down.
Epsilon, whatever tree you're barking up is the wrong one.
Agree with this 100%
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Posted at 03-14-17, 05:22 am Link | #33
ideas post G12 should not be implemented because nexon's dev team was changed and the game started going entirely downhill because they had no idea what they were doing...
I'd like to point out, things like pots, feathers, bandages, and a few other things had their max stack size increased. Some skills had the caps removed or raised, auto-queuing items into a production form was added, inventory auto-organize was added, tagging bags for when you pick up new items was added. The list goes on.
Post g12 does not necessarily make every idea bad. Yes, they should be closely monitored or modified possibly, but flat out refusing them based on the premise not of balance or how it affects the game, but that it was post g12, is not what you want.
Switching off that topic.
I will bring up the topic of mana evaportation for giants being a big issue for something like peaca. Wights are fully immune to physical, our throwing attack has a nasty cool down. I'm sure you can imagine the results for a giant in peaca, so i'll leave it at that. My opinion, i really want to do away with evaporation regardless, but w/e happens, happens.
there are some decent QUALITY OF LIFE updates, but those don't change the entire balance of the game.
take a look at oldschool runescape, but ignore their bad polled in updates (For example, the dragon spear special attack was extremely overpowered, but everybody voted no to nerfing it because every clan abused it and wanted to keep it in the game)
Posted at 03-14-17, 11:01 am Link | #34
take a look at oldschool runescape, but ignore their bad polled in updates (For example, the dragon spear special attack was extremely overpowered, but everybody voted no to nerfing it because every clan abused it and wanted to keep it in the game)
Bad example. I know very very little about runescape. I took a look at it years ago, but i didn't do much in it. I'm also not gonna go research an unfamiliar game for a point of reference. In short, i have no clue what you're talking about.
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Posted at 03-14-17, 07:28 pm Link | #35
Mana evaporation has GOT to go. It has no place in the game. It does not make sense thematically or balance-wise, based on whether the player is or is not a "Mage".
BALANCE:
Except every other class (aside from Archery) can match current Magic DPS. Every other class including Archery can utilize other weapons with no resource penalty. Every other class can use all of their DPS-intensive skills with their primary equipment.
THEME:
Mana is something that flows around, and through you. You channel mana from your body, though the wand, and into forming magic in front of your face. The wand is just a focus, it is not injecting needles into your hand and suckling out your Mana, or reverse-flowing the element into your body. Mana exits your body, enters the wand, and creates a spell. Mana not used is STILL IN YOUR BODY. Otherwise, when equipping a wand, your mana would be sucked into the wand and you would effectively have zero mana forever because the wand was constantly draining you until you put it down.
Epsilon, whatever tree you're barking up is the wrong one.
BALANCE:
Except every other class (aside from Archery) can match current Magic DPS. Every other class including Archery can utilize other weapons with no resource penalty. Every other class can use all of their DPS-intensive skills with their primary equipment.
THEME:
Mana is something that flows around, and through you. You channel mana from your body, though the wand, and into forming magic in front of your face. The wand is just a focus, it is not injecting needles into your hand and suckling out your Mana, or reverse-flowing the element into your body. Mana exits your body, enters the wand, and creates a spell. Mana not used is STILL IN YOUR BODY. Otherwise, when equipping a wand, your mana would be sucked into the wand and you would effectively have zero mana forever because the wand was constantly draining you until you put it down.
Epsilon, whatever tree you're barking up is the wrong one.
Just what "tree" am I "barking up"? My whole argument has been to implement skills such as Inspiration, to help alleviate the concerns people have expressed regarding MP consumption. And I only wanted to keep mana evaporation so that the skill doesn't get abused, and that I also still believe that a mage should generally only need one of their spells to do enough damage.
I'm not beyond persuasion, if you think that idea in its entirety isn't going to work, tell me why. But so far, I've only seen one person actually acknowledge my idea, everyone else is only calling out my statement on keeping mana evaporation; that isn't going to present a very convincing argument to me.
Posted at 03-14-17, 07:52 pm Link | #36
Any kind of balance that mana evaporation brings is negated by MP pots anyway. Why keep what is just an inconvenience?
Posted at 03-14-17, 07:58 pm Link | #37
Any kind of balance that mana evaporation brings is negated by MP pots anyway. Why keep what is just an inconvenience?
Once again, only talking about mana evaporation, and NOTHING about inspiration.
Posted at 03-14-17, 08:54 pm Link | #38
I'm just going to quote what I initially stated.
I'm going to have to disagree on some points regarding magic.
1) No chain casting skill, please. As stated before, it would make wand upgrades/egos pointless, and quite frankly, I can only see it as a pretty broken skill in the hands of a magic warrior. Don't get me started on chain casting int magic either. As for alchemists, keep in mind that they're limited to their stock of crystals, and from my understanding, don't get any stat buffs unlike mages. This is also the era where alchemists need to MAKE certain crystals for things like golems, life drain, and so on...
2) This is a bit opinionated, but I must boldly state that we shouldn't remove mana evaporation either. Allowing bolts to be used as an easy hybrid skill is one thing, but for something as powerful as chain casting or int magic, I feel like a mage should then commit themself to their class; otherwise, I feel like being able to switch between a wand and any other weapon could open up the door to some broken strategies.
NOW, some points I DO agree on, and some ideas I'd like to pitch in concerning magic...
1) Meditation regen should be based on the live servers, right now it's pretty useless, and without it MP takes a while to recover without potions or a mana tunnel.
2) *Maybe* bring the inspiration skill in here as well, but it should still require a magic weapon to use (And again, mana evaporation imo should remain in this case), Then some pressure can be taken off wand users. And with mana evaporation in place, only wand users will be able to use this upkeep their mana shield.
Lastly, I will say that I have a neutral standing for mana shield's degenerating effect. I will also say that something definitely needs to be done about the magic shields, but I'll leave that up for others to discuss for now.
1) No chain casting skill, please. As stated before, it would make wand upgrades/egos pointless, and quite frankly, I can only see it as a pretty broken skill in the hands of a magic warrior. Don't get me started on chain casting int magic either. As for alchemists, keep in mind that they're limited to their stock of crystals, and from my understanding, don't get any stat buffs unlike mages. This is also the era where alchemists need to MAKE certain crystals for things like golems, life drain, and so on...
2) This is a bit opinionated, but I must boldly state that we shouldn't remove mana evaporation either. Allowing bolts to be used as an easy hybrid skill is one thing, but for something as powerful as chain casting or int magic, I feel like a mage should then commit themself to their class; otherwise, I feel like being able to switch between a wand and any other weapon could open up the door to some broken strategies.
NOW, some points I DO agree on, and some ideas I'd like to pitch in concerning magic...
1) Meditation regen should be based on the live servers, right now it's pretty useless, and without it MP takes a while to recover without potions or a mana tunnel.
2) *Maybe* bring the inspiration skill in here as well, but it should still require a magic weapon to use (And again, mana evaporation imo should remain in this case), Then some pressure can be taken off wand users. And with mana evaporation in place, only wand users will be able to use this upkeep their mana shield.
Lastly, I will say that I have a neutral standing for mana shield's degenerating effect. I will also say that something definitely needs to be done about the magic shields, but I'll leave that up for others to discuss for now.
1) Meditation regen should be based on the live servers, right now it's pretty useless, and without it MP takes a while to recover without potions or a mana tunnel.
meditation may not be the greatest, but balance updates on this server should be completely independent from live game. come up with some new ideas
take a look at oldschool runescape, but ignore their bad polled in updates (For example, the dragon spear special attack was extremely overpowered, but everybody voted no to nerfing it because every clan abused it and wanted to keep it in the game)
Bad example. I know very very little about runescape. I took a look at it years ago, but i didn't do much in it. I'm also not gonna go research an unfamiliar game for a point of reference. In short, i have no clue what you're talking about.
the entire content poll system is based off of oldschool runescape's, except it currently lacks an "abstain" option
there have been many debates about the OSRS system, but what the dev teams tend to do is come up with concepts for new content/weapons independently from the userbase, and then sort of show it off, and then do a poll for it.
having a group of experienced players/game developers in control of the updates may be better than a content polling system but it's not the worst thing ever
Posted at 03-15-17, 05:44 am Link | #40
meditation may not be the greatest, but balance updates on this server should be completely independent from live game. come up with some new ideas
it's a pretty clear cut case of the skill sucks and the values need to be increased. i don't know what else you can do to the skill without completely reworking it.
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