Authentic Old-School Mabinogi Experience
Elven Magic Revamp (rev. 1 by Dani Shyland on 04-12-18, 09:58 pm)
Posted at 04-12-18, 09:57 pm Link | #1
It is said magic is an advantage for elves and I do not consider slightly less mana consumption for SOME skills and an increase in SOME skills [lightning bolt for one] as something that makes magic an "advantage". So I reckon some options in this thread that aren't too OP. This suggestion is open to suggestions for change C:.
All spells
-All spells removed and replaced with a different variant for elves, as with human range and elf range being different.
-All these new variants get 100-300 more range. [range added is based on how close to spell was originally, for example Blaze would be 100 range added and Thunder would be 300 added]
-Elves cast these new variants 1.1x faster
Ice Magic
-Icebolt has a 50% of chance of not consuming the bolt upon execution
-The new variant of Icespear gives more int than the regular.
Fire Magic
-Firebolt is given 140 max at r1
-The new variant of Fireball gives more int than the regular and the str portion is removed.
Lightning Magic
-Lightning bolt will knockback all enemies fully charged, splash radius increased to 700
-The new variant of Thunder gives more int than the regular.
Other Magic
-Healing and Party Healing doubled in terms of healing.
-
All spells
-All spells removed and replaced with a different variant for elves, as with human range and elf range being different.
-All these new variants get 100-300 more range. [range added is based on how close to spell was originally, for example Blaze would be 100 range added and Thunder would be 300 added]
-Elves cast these new variants 1.1x faster
Ice Magic
-Icebolt has a 50% of chance of not consuming the bolt upon execution
-The new variant of Icespear gives more int than the regular.
Fire Magic
-Firebolt is given 140 max at r1
-The new variant of Fireball gives more int than the regular and the str portion is removed.
Lightning Magic
-Lightning bolt will knockback all enemies fully charged, splash radius increased to 700
-The new variant of Thunder gives more int than the regular.
Other Magic
-Healing and Party Healing doubled in terms of healing.
-
Posted at 04-13-18, 10:07 am Link | #2
You're asking for a HUGE buff to a race thats arguably already the best race in the game currently.
Elves already have faster movement speed on top of cheaper mana cost for some spells, they don't need a huge buff to their magic on top of that.
just on a sidenote:
Elves = best at Archery, Magic, Alchemy (mainly because of movement speed).
Humans = best at Melee (arguably better then giants in some regards due weapons).
Giants Bestish at Melee and poor with literally everything else.
Elves already have faster movement speed on top of cheaper mana cost for some spells, they don't need a huge buff to their magic on top of that.
just on a sidenote:
Elves = best at Archery, Magic, Alchemy (mainly because of movement speed).
Humans = best at Melee (arguably better then giants in some regards due weapons).
Giants Bestish at Melee and poor with literally everything else.
post rev. 11 by Dani Shyland on 04-13-18, 11:17 am
Posted at 04-13-18, 10:43 am Link | #3
It's not really a huge buff it's just range to spells based on proximity and some elements which should have been a thing from the get go...? The mana cost being cheaper is actually only for ice bolt being 1 and ice spear, regardless elf bolts cost more than the other two races, also humans get a discount in mana for lightningbolt(?). Movement speed is a laughable argument considering mounts and even so it renders everything being `advantageous` not necessarily magic . Alchemy is similar across the boards so idk where you're getting that logic.
P.S a magic buff to the elves has been talked about since the dawn of time so this is not relatively new news.
P.S.S I'm not saying add DMG to every but bring out what makes that skill a thing. The only DMG one would be firebolt, bc DMG is basically what makes that skill a thing.
P.S.S.S Movement speed is not a skill tree benefit but rather a racial benefit and should not be brought up in this thread, kthx.
P.S a magic buff to the elves has been talked about since the dawn of time so this is not relatively new news.
P.S.S I'm not saying add DMG to every but bring out what makes that skill a thing. The only DMG one would be firebolt, bc DMG is basically what makes that skill a thing.
P.S.S.S Movement speed is not a skill tree benefit but rather a racial benefit and should not be brought up in this thread, kthx.
[Posted by Dani Shyland on 04-13-18, 10:44 am, deleted by Dani Shyland]
- #9095
Posted at 04-13-18, 01:58 pm Link | #5
-You want to increase their magic damage overall by granting them more int.
-You want to make their firebolt stronger.
-You want to increase their DPS/combat reliability by increasing all their magic by 1.1.
-You want to drastically improve their healing abilities.
And give this specifically to the race who is already best at both ranged and magic as it stands (+ they are in fact the best in alchemy as well, because movement speed IS very relevant in combat due to you are not being mounted when you are fighting unless, you guessed it, use elf archery).
Don't think any magic buffs are needed.
P.S.S.S. movement speed is VERY relevant for their magic as well, due to them being able to land IS + blaze much easier due to them being able to move to the correct position quicker. Besides that, movement speed helps everything els in general due to being able to move around quicker unmounted. Also you are saying movement speed is a racial ability, but you are talking about buffing elves specifically, and not all races their magic, so it is very relevant to mention and consider this advantage they have when using magic.
-You want to make their firebolt stronger.
-You want to increase their DPS/combat reliability by increasing all their magic by 1.1.
-You want to drastically improve their healing abilities.
And give this specifically to the race who is already best at both ranged and magic as it stands (+ they are in fact the best in alchemy as well, because movement speed IS very relevant in combat due to you are not being mounted when you are fighting unless, you guessed it, use elf archery).
Don't think any magic buffs are needed.
P.S.S.S. movement speed is VERY relevant for their magic as well, due to them being able to land IS + blaze much easier due to them being able to move to the correct position quicker. Besides that, movement speed helps everything els in general due to being able to move around quicker unmounted. Also you are saying movement speed is a racial ability, but you are talking about buffing elves specifically, and not all races their magic, so it is very relevant to mention and consider this advantage they have when using magic.
Posted at 04-13-18, 04:07 pm Link | #6
Best at archery so long as you ignore the absolutely broken aiming system. The exact scenario needed to make Elfs "the best" at archery also means constantly hammering at a 15% chance to miss and die for it, or mastering zeroshot which is in itself a can of worms.
If you want Elfs to be "advantaged" with magic, it needs to be actual damage output and/or castspeed. Costing massively more AP for a lower MP cost is a joke and if that is all it's going to be, they might as well be "nerfed" to Human AP/MP costs.
(Double heal potency is silly though. 96hp/charge is absolute overkill.)
If you want Elfs to be "advantaged" with magic, it needs to be actual damage output and/or castspeed. Costing massively more AP for a lower MP cost is a joke and if that is all it's going to be, they might as well be "nerfed" to Human AP/MP costs.
(Double heal potency is silly though. 96hp/charge is absolute overkill.)
Posted at 04-13-18, 05:36 pm Link | #7
Post about why elves are the best archers:
I don't see a reason to have elves more ''advantaged'' with magic from a balance point of view. The reason why looking at how elf archery is stronger than any other race their archery when discussing buffing/nerfing another class, is because the skillsets are not isolated from eachother. So if you are going to buff elf magic, you are buffing ''elves''. If you are buffing giant magic, you are buffing ''giants''. So if you want a healthy set of races to choose from, you want them to overall be comparable (either by having their skill sets all be roughly the same, or by having each have a weakness and a strength. Of course how strong their strength/weakness are is also very relevant).
They have archery they are good at, and they can do magic. Humans are worse at archery, somewhat equal in magic and better in melee. Giants are the worst out of all in magic, can't do ranged, and (as discussed in another forum post here) their melee capabilities compared to human are also being questioned. So when I think of what race to buff to make everything more balanced among the three, I'd rather think of buffing something giant related than elf related.
I don't see a reason to have elves more ''advantaged'' with magic from a balance point of view. The reason why looking at how elf archery is stronger than any other race their archery when discussing buffing/nerfing another class, is because the skillsets are not isolated from eachother. So if you are going to buff elf magic, you are buffing ''elves''. If you are buffing giant magic, you are buffing ''giants''. So if you want a healthy set of races to choose from, you want them to overall be comparable (either by having their skill sets all be roughly the same, or by having each have a weakness and a strength. Of course how strong their strength/weakness are is also very relevant).
They have archery they are good at, and they can do magic. Humans are worse at archery, somewhat equal in magic and better in melee. Giants are the worst out of all in magic, can't do ranged, and (as discussed in another forum post here) their melee capabilities compared to human are also being questioned. So when I think of what race to buff to make everything more balanced among the three, I'd rather think of buffing something giant related than elf related.
post rev. 1 by Dani Shyland on 04-13-18, 08:11 pm
Posted at 04-13-18, 08:09 pm Link | #8
Excelsian, what you don't understand is that it is 'said' that elves are the best at MAGIC and ARCHERY, which in case is not the truth. Archery is arguable but magic not so much, that's even across the board. So it's something that should have been addressed a long time ago. And as for the movement aspect, that's like saying, let's take away the giant's ability to wield a shield and a 2hs together, reduce their speed to humans, and not allow them the ability to carry humanoids...it's a racial aspect so it shouldn't be factored.
Excelsian, what you don't understand is that it is 'said' that elves are the best at MAGIC and ARCHERY, which in case is not the truth.
I personally really don't care what is ''said'' by skills, lore or whatsoever. I purely argue for a fair environment for all the races to have their benefit that feels justified, and currently that already does not exist to some people, with most people leaning towards elf being the strongest lategame, and giant only being the strongest early game due to WM dominating the lower levels and the quick growth of a giant. If you want to make changes based on lore, or any other reason besides a balance perspective, go for it as long as in return, the other races get some boon as well (unless the race in question is the underdog, which elf is not). Elves have their superior ranged thanks to mounted archery and much shorter load times on archery's major damage skill magnum, and lower load time on ranged attack which is also perfect for utility due to the 0.3 sec load time and ability to move/run on horse while running from an enemy you for example missed a crash shot, magnum or anything els against. If you want to make their magic significantly better than the other races as well on top of better archery, then at least give the other races some boon as well since elves do not require more benefits as it is.
And as for the movement aspect, that's like saying, let's take away the giant's ability to wield a shield and a 2hs together, reduce their speed to humans, and not allow them the ability to carry humanoids...it's a racial aspect so it shouldn't be factored.
No one ever suggested to take away elves their movement aspect? That is crucial for the strength of elves, and one of the reasons why their archery is the best. The same goes for giants, removing their ability to wield shield + 2h would just remove part of the combat strength they gained in exchange for having NO ACCESS to ranged whatsoever and make them garbage compared to humans in melee, and would not make sense.
post rev. 6 by Dani Shyland on 04-13-18, 11:20 pm
Posted at 04-13-18, 10:56 pm Link | #10
No one ever suggested to take away elves their movement aspect? That is crucial for the strength of elves.
My argument exactly, stop bringing movement up as a case for a skill advantage it doesn't make sense, cause that's the race in general. Lelele
and one of the reasons why their archery is the best.
Regardless this thread isn't about archery, if you're here for that, go to another thread. This thread is for magic. Can you give a reason why the bolts cost more than humans/ giants if elves are supposed to be naturally gifted? And don't say movement speed as that's a race benefit. Also to add onto this, our combat is weakest, as it should be. But it's done in percents so let that be noted somewhere as reason for then against.
Posted at 04-13-18, 11:31 pm Link | #11
A few points I'd like to mention.
Elves start out with more base int from character creation then other races.
Elves get more potential int from skills in total then other races.
Elves start out with more base mana from character creation then other races.
Elves get more potential mana from skills in total then giants.
Elves have Mirage Missile, wich is a ranged/magic hybrid attack since the poison damage scales of your int.
Elves have Elven Magic Missile while in transformation wich is also a ranged/magic hybrid attack exclusive to them.
As for why certain magic spells cost more for elves then for the other races the only thing that springs to my mind is for "balance" purposes. Mainly because the advantage from their movement speed allows elves to kite enemies with magic without the use of pets. Something that is way more difficult to do with the other races.
Elves start out with more base int from character creation then other races.
Elves get more potential int from skills in total then other races.
Elves start out with more base mana from character creation then other races.
Elves get more potential mana from skills in total then giants.
Elves have Mirage Missile, wich is a ranged/magic hybrid attack since the poison damage scales of your int.
Elves have Elven Magic Missile while in transformation wich is also a ranged/magic hybrid attack exclusive to them.
As for why certain magic spells cost more for elves then for the other races the only thing that springs to my mind is for "balance" purposes. Mainly because the advantage from their movement speed allows elves to kite enemies with magic without the use of pets. Something that is way more difficult to do with the other races.
post rev. 6 by Dani Shyland on 04-13-18, 11:50 pm
Posted at 04-13-18, 11:37 pm Link | #12
Elves start out with more base mana from character creation then other races.
Elves get more potential mana from skills in total then giants.
Elves get more potential mana from skills in total then giants.
Current Human/Elf Total: 704 Mana (Potential 808 Mana)
Current Giant Total: 664 Mana (Potential 768 Mana)
Not by much, regardless pots mitigate the need to worry about mana.
Elves get more potential int from skills in total then other races.
According to 2011 wiki history:
Current Human: 734 Int (Potential 801 Int)
Current Elf Total: 748 Int (Potential 815 Int)
Current Giant Total: 726 Int (Potential 793 Int)
There's barely any difference.
Elves have Mirage Missile, wich is a ranged/magic hybrid attack since the poison damage scales of your int.
Elves have Elven Magic Missile while in transformation wich is also a ranged/magic hybrid attack exclusive to them.
Elves have Elven Magic Missile while in transformation wich is also a ranged/magic hybrid attack exclusive to them.
As for why certain magic spells cost more for elves then for the other races the only thing that springs to my mind is for "balance" purposes. Mainly because the advantage from their movement speed allows elves to kite enemies with magic without the use of pets. Something that is way more difficult to do with the other races.
Posted at 04-14-18, 07:51 am Link | #13
Why do elves need a magic buff though? They already have the best archery in the game, with the highest DPS skill in the game.
They also have the highest MP buff while transformed (700mp, whereas DK is the next closest at 600 on a max roll).
They have the fastest movement speed.
They have lower MP costs for certain spells.
Also, if you where to buff elfy-magic, you'd need to buff something for giants as then they'd be falling behind and vastly inferior by the time you're at end-game.
The only thing that needs doing to magic, imo, is removing mana evaporation. It's the only thing that stopped me hybriding magic, and going for archery instead. Some cheap "Beginner" wands might be a nice touch for new players, too.
They also have the highest MP buff while transformed (700mp, whereas DK is the next closest at 600 on a max roll).
They have the fastest movement speed.
They have lower MP costs for certain spells.
Also, if you where to buff elfy-magic, you'd need to buff something for giants as then they'd be falling behind and vastly inferior by the time you're at end-game.
The only thing that needs doing to magic, imo, is removing mana evaporation. It's the only thing that stopped me hybriding magic, and going for archery instead. Some cheap "Beginner" wands might be a nice touch for new players, too.
Posted at 04-14-18, 03:15 pm Link | #14
Staph whipping on elves >.<!
Posted at 04-15-18, 04:56 pm Link | #15
I'm gonna have to touch down on a sore spot and say...
...It's hilarious that people would label Max MP as a legitimate advantage for Elves, when if you replace "Elf" with "Mana Evaporation", the solution is "Just pop more MP Potions". Elves might save a few thousand gold a day by needing to use MP potions very slightly less, but come on now.
Also, not even 20 more int; not even 1% more magic damage. How much less does Elf melee do? How much more does Giant melee do? Elf gets by miles the worst Damage:AP ratio return of the races. Yes, this is despite the highly situational "best DPS" ranged in the game, which even with faster load speed, means a guaranteed death the second you miss.
...It's hilarious that people would label Max MP as a legitimate advantage for Elves, when if you replace "Elf" with "Mana Evaporation", the solution is "Just pop more MP Potions". Elves might save a few thousand gold a day by needing to use MP potions very slightly less, but come on now.
Also, not even 20 more int; not even 1% more magic damage. How much less does Elf melee do? How much more does Giant melee do? Elf gets by miles the worst Damage:AP ratio return of the races. Yes, this is despite the highly situational "best DPS" ranged in the game, which even with faster load speed, means a guaranteed death the second you miss.
Posted at 04-15-18, 05:16 pm Link | #16
Stilva I will always vouch for elf melee. Why the hell do they only do 200% damage at rank 1 Windmill? And it's a longer grind than humans? They're already leagues behind since they can't dual-wield or use a two-handed. So it wouldn't make that much of a difference if they had a full 250% Windmill.
Source: Used a melee-only elf on Mari for about 1500 levels before switching to a giant and out-damaging her in a couple hundred levels... It was fun though...
But Max MP is an advantage even for ranged, since Mana Shield is pretty OP atm. Using mana shield on my human here can reduce Elite mobs to only hitting 30-40 damage.
Source: Used a melee-only elf on Mari for about 1500 levels before switching to a giant and out-damaging her in a couple hundred levels... It was fun though...
But Max MP is an advantage even for ranged, since Mana Shield is pretty OP atm. Using mana shield on my human here can reduce Elite mobs to only hitting 30-40 damage.
I feel like what you are asking is too much in term of balance. People already complain to no end that elven archery is op (It's situational). I don't think that adding any kind of buff to elven magic would be worth the effort.
What's really terrible right now is the mana evaporation as Stilva pointed. It makes being an hybrid hell as you switching weapon will trash your mana away. This is very counter productive and breaks ranged and magic synergy.
What's really terrible right now is the mana evaporation as Stilva pointed. It makes being an hybrid hell as you switching weapon will trash your mana away. This is very counter productive and breaks ranged and magic synergy.
Posted at 04-25-18, 09:20 pm Link | #18
This is very counter productive and breaks ranged and magic synergy.
It breaks magic and ''insert anything'' synergy besides being able to use normal bolts.
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