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I personally think defense is perfectly fine the state it is in. Its good to have something that is very powerful, like defense, in a more niche situation. Not every skill needs to be a catch all like windmill is used as. Its mitigation in a 1v1 situation is very strong, it is usable in multi aggro situations when used well and the its base stats it gives while leveling should not be understated.

Defense is great passive gains with powerful niche and thoughtful use.

As for counter I don't use it and never did playing live outside of some use in pvp. So with my experience with it i don't have much to add other than even with the changes you suggested I still wouldn't use it.

So I played a human archer on live from g2-g15

From my experience the problem isn't the fact that you just spam Ar. I used archery as my primary damage source so anytime I wasn't using a skill with my bow I was at a disadvantage. So its not about spamming Ar.

Crash shot is insane super good mostly as an opener or if you dont have aggro on yourself in a party.

Mag, even "the inferior version of that of elf" is very powerful . Just because its a weaker version doesn't mean its not strong.

Human Range attack is awful firing one arrow instead of two means we deal nearly half the damage.

Support shot is really underused but its great to shoot off when you see a party member going in for a smash or wm, support shot spam on something getting hit by final hit SO GOOD.

Then there's Arrow revolver, this is the skill that defines human archers, this is your new default attack. That doesn't mean you spam it but it does mean you'll be using it a ton and it has layers of problems.

The damage is does on this build, 490%, is a little low. I feel it could probably use a tiny buff up to about 550% but this really isn't a problem and I believe its fine where its at.

Durability sucks this gets compounded by the fact that Ar makes extra use of bow speed so fast bows are multiplicative damage boosts, the sheer amount of damage you can get out compared to a slower bow is pretty crazy. The cost of this is durability and that's ok range in general is hard on durability.

So the damage is okay where its at, mostly. The durability is a battle but overall a reasonable cost. So whats the real issue with Ar? Stamina usage.

Stamina cost of 16, SIXTEEN? That's crazy. Smash and windmill use 10 and aren't used at the same frequency Ar is. Normal attacks for consideration are 2 stamina.

Cyre is right. You shouldn't be spamming Ar and humans have great advantages for that, why i personally think post Ar buff humans are better archers. The aiming speed they get over elves, 300% compared to 200%, means you can be far more aggressive up close. Human's melee is better than that of an elves and they get more dex/base damage so their skills are harder hitting.

So they are able to better make use of other skills that are not strictly range. However the large stamina cost of arrow revolver makes this more punishing forcing a more cautious playstyle which tends to lead to more range spam leading to the feeling of these issues.

My proposal is to leave the damage of Ar relatively untouched, a small buff may be warranted but to decrease the stamina usage to post buff Ar state of 8 opposed to 16. I don't use durability as a real issue.

tldr: I don't think spamming Ar is the problem and believe that the g14 buff was necessary. However if its overall seen as unneeded I implore a stamina reduction.

Sorry about formatting, I sort of scribbled the information down and may edit as I do think some change is important.

So i'll start by saying I don't think there is a problem with dual-wielding.
I also spent my time playing live, g2-g15, pretty strictly using a bow/warhammer-sheild. So im not defending it because im worried something im using will get nerfed.


Dual-wield is better at windmill
Two-handed is better at smash
Good this is perfectly fine.


50 str? You based all of your math on 50 str, the difference for smash numbers would be massive between 2h and dw with higher str. 300 would have been a better base to work with.

You gloss over the efficiency of the enchants pretty quickly.
For 2h I need to get a weapon with a r8 and r7 enchant and a max strength artisan roll
For dw I need to get a weapon with r6 and r5 enchant plus max strength roll, twice. And, even then its -140sp THATS NUTS.

However there is a probelm I will agree with here. Battleswords are way to powerful but not solely because they are just better than most weapons but because artisan rolls were never meant to be such a small cost to roll.
They should be far more thought behind if the potenial benifit fits the cost to them.

I don't think theres any problem with dual-wielding. Dual-wielding is better at something than two handers and thats ok.
The fact that windmill is meta is what is making it seem like a larger issue than it really is.
Artisan rolls cost needs to be reevaluated or potentially their effectiveness.

I'd love to use them but i feel giving them a quiver of 500 would be a little more balanced

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I am somebody who has been asking for a Ar buff since i started on this server, I played a primary range focused character on live from g2-g15ish. And, even though id really like to see an Ar buff I personally think a g14 number change would be better suited than a functionality change like proposed

By changing its functionality to 3 shots and a automatic knockback you reduce its versatility tremendously and if we compare it to the g14 one and not the one we currently have I dont think the extra damage it would deal would outweigh that change
It also further lessons the impact of the attack speed of bows and more harshly punish missing

This is my 3rd time ranking it.
Is it easy? Well yeah its just mindless farming.
Is it doable? Of course given enough time.

That doesn't mean its not tedious. There's no reason for the skill to be the grind it is