MabiPro: The Authentic Old-School Mabinogi Experience

We need more female giants, that'll surely fix all of our issues!

Hmmm I didn't see anything worth making a fuss over so I'm just commenting about how much attention that such things need less of. A lot of people feel entitled to start arguments and continue arguments these days. Rather than arguments, we should be looking for common ground. We need more love in a world where love doesn't belong. <3

I assure you we strive not to censor language or police words but merely to keep users from being excessively uncivil or creating a needlessly hostile environment that drives people off in the same way that would occur if we did have that intention. We know how touchy this is and have no plans to regulate language outside of a case by case basis while considering context and intent every single time. Rest easy.
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Boof

Yup, just about sums up what I said. You should be able to say whatever, just don't be a clown while doing it and show the others some respect.

Honestly in my opinion the best way to handle this would be to create a report section for harassment on the website that's separate from the bug report which can be moderated quickly and then only place restrictions on REPORTED OFFENSES. This would again be done at GM discretion but would allow for you to point directly at a particular line of text or screenshot in order to justify your actions. This would also prevent any claims of favoritism since you could explain WHY each person did or didn't get banned case by case in tickets.

I personally don't want anyone banned for anything they've ever said to or about me under any circumstances and would never use this feature, but at the very least it would allow people who DID want to take advantage of it to feel protected without causing the general community to feel that they're being over-moderated. It would also clear up controversies about why people got chat restricted and link statements that they've made directly to their punishments.

I'd + this. Though there is the possibility that a couple trolls could just send in thousands of tickets via macro, which would make the system moot. Hopefully that wouldn't happen.

this wasn't even the point of my post. people DO submit tickets and people DO getting punished over these tickets - that's literally already how it is. it's the reasons they're being punished for that are ridiculous. in the past, people have even tried to bait my guild into saying things just to submit tickets and get them in trouble (which doesn't work because we're not idiots, btw.) you're basically saying "don't punish people unless they're reported," but people are already reporting other people left and right based on the tiniest, miniscule things that offend them. the entire point was to push the blacklist over this senseless policing, the need to intervene every time someone calls someone else a mean word.

if i was a gm, and someone came to me complaining about what someone else said to them, i would ask them if they had the person blacklisted. if not? that's on them and no one has any business being punished. if so, and they are bypassing that somehow? only then would i intervene. i repeat, BY NOT BLACKLISTING SOMEONE YOU ARE OPTING INTO BEING OFFENDED. if someone REFUSES to use the blacklist out of sheer pig-headedness, the accused does NOT deserve to be punished, period, regardless of the vile they're spewing. of course, that's just my opinion, but that's how mabinogi was and anyone who thinks otherwise is only lying to themself. it's as easy as a push of a button to make anyone's character and chat disappear and like i said, if someone bypasses the blacklist, THEN it deserves gm attention- not before.

If there's already a system for reporting suspected harassment and whatnot, and people are doing what I said I hope wouldn't come to pass (reporting false claims, which should be a punishable offense to begin with), then obviously that's an issue. Blacklisting works as well, no issue there, though I have a feeling most players just plain forget that feature even exists or fail to notice it. There's also the part where it's human nature to prove your "superiority" to another that's trying to "dominate" you. This is why you see people that have no chance of beating someone else still get in any sort of fight because the other is actively trying to instigate one. Most people aren't grown up enough to just ignore the other, and it gets especially easier for another to grief/troll others when it's all just pixels on a screen.

Segway from that... as I stated on my first post, I'm perfectly fine with people saying what they want, spirit of free speech and all, but like others have said-words can make people mad, even if unwarranted (which I find is the case nearly every time) this is still the GM's server, and their opinions are really the only ones that matter in the grand scheme of things, and all we can do is basically petition them to do something that the majority wants. Do I think that someone that's truthfully speaking their own mind should be punished for it, even if it's something horrid? No, and no one should think that someone saying things is cause for censorship-the post a GM responded to me has stated the same thing-they have no intention of policing words(though intention and actual action are two completely separate things at times). Others think otherwise, for whatever reason or agenda they might have.

It also doesn't help that my generation is a bunch of snowflakes that can't take the slightest deviation from their own opinion and will REEEEEE until the cows come home, so I can see why people would just be throwing tickets left and right.

I can get behind adding this, if not another ticket category. Not giving an ETA but in the near future. We'll give an announcement regarding it.
      

I think this post is the best thing we could do. Freaking ideals.

I think it's really cool that people are starting to talk about an important thing. It shows that people are learning instead of squabbling. The only thing I don't like is that there are a ton of ways to approach this and at such an early stage, there's a very high likelihood it may cause more problems.

Just appoint a community manager with some experience or something.

I vote Pepe for community manager. Either that or Dark Helmet.

So, in light of this thread, I did my own personal analysis of the situation since it was all in Global Chat.

Lake lost an item. Excel made a thoughtless comment. Elf and Crew interpreted this as a power play because of the frustrations they were experiencing, and dogpiled the shit out of Excel. I don't think Excel was making a power play. Jade stepped in to make some comments and the comments were appropriate without instigating any further problems. However, Elf and Crew were unsatisfied with this.

To this point, NO WRONG HAS OCCURRED.

It isn't until Jade issues a warning against Elf that the powder keg is lit. I think what Jade had to say was sufficient for a warning. What really blew things up was the warning issued. The warning in the system issued form was a not-so-subtle reminder to people who were already feeling somewhat insulted that they were actually even more powerless than they previously thought.

Elf and Crew really starts railing into Jade. Jade really starts fucking up. People are now calling for better standards.

This isn't about free speech. This isn't about the blacklist feature. This isn't about moderator favoritism. This was just the regular old "Ego Game" at work. At the end of the day, we had four players get extremely upset because they thought another player was talking down to them and a moderator who started making petty comments and issuing bans because their ego was hurt.

@jean

yes, the issue that sparked this had nothing to do with my main argument in this thread, however it's far from the first time mods have thrown around unfair punishments based on feelings and gut reaction. the change needs to be from the ground up, not just surrounding this one issue.

You are calling for a solution to a different problem than the one at hand. In this situation, player moderation worked great. The harassment that occurred this time was from you guys to Excel and Excel handled it like a fucking champ. You guys should take notes from him. It wasn't until the warning was issued that everybody turned onto Jade herself. This wasn't an issue of players harassing other players. This was an issue of players harassing the staff. Staff should not be blacklisting players for their own sake. That just doesn't work.

Now, I haven't played this server for the last year, so I haven't been privy to all the wonderful things that have happened but I've been given some tips that there is evidence out there of negligence and favoritism from the GM group. I don't think in this narrow instance, there was any favoritism. In the broader scope, there definitely could be if I had some evidence to compare to. I think if you're serious about confronting that (for instance, Elf's claims about being called slurs), you could do a lot better than throwing out these claims in frustration during a grease fire. Hell, you give me the evidence, and I might find myself sitting in the penalty box with you in not too long.

I do fucking hate dishonesty.

okay, if you're looking for some kind of example, my bf, daxis, some time ago when we still played, was muted and the only screenshot drahan could provide as evidence towards him was a screenshot of (just) his character saying something along the lines of "fucking faggot" or "sup faggot," something along those lines. i don't remember what he even said anymore (maybe a gm could come in to correct me? do they keep these things on-file??), but it was said to a FRIEND and some eavesdropper took it upon themselves to report him, getting him chat muted for what was it, a week? two? based off a single screenshot with no context. who knows, maybe whoever reported him made something up on the spot. they did a blanket mute on a small handful of my guild at that time, based on ... basically no to very little damning evidence.

sno, quite possibly the kindest, sweetest person i know, got vc muted for posting a vc of a LITERAL TERIYAKI BOTTLE (example), all because it was a play on another player's name and THEY didn't like that. no, this wasn't a racist thing, just a play on his name- temoraki, for anyone wondering. temoraki, teriyaki, get it? anyways- in retaliation, yes, retaliation, my guild got him muted for throwing around the n-word, something we wouldn't have normally cared to report, but THAT is the environment on this server. you see my point? it's ridiculous and power-abusive. we had no place getting in trouble, nor did he, regardless of the drama we had between eachother. even partaking in that behavior i'll be the first to admit it's CHILDISH. people have actually tried to bait someone they dislike into saying things, just so they can turn around and report it. it's madness!

choose to believe me based on my word alone or not - obviously, a year and new pc later, these aren't screenshots i've kept - but this is hardly the first time someone has been unfairly punished, and it will not be the last and instances like the ones i've mentioned as well as the current ones at-hand only serve as evidence as to why myself, my guild, and plenty of others have quit over, yes, overmoderation by the gms. no, obviously, a gm shouldn't be blacklisting players, PLAYERS should be blacklisting players. i'm not saying there are no instances in which a person should receive punishments, but DEFINITELY not for their own, interpersonal drama. this is the last i'll say on the matter because i'm more or less just repeating myself, it's just too much effort for a game i no longer play- it's just sad, the state that it's in.

What we could do is have a sort of community jury. Get random people/volunteers that neither of the two parties know and give them the evidence on hand, and let them decide on what should happen. That is the best system that anyone in human history has really come up with, and it has (mostly) worked so far.

This sounds like way too much work for something so silly. I only even think a "report" system is appropriate to bring attention to things that have gotten way out of hand, such as in the conditions that Auburn stated. Interpersonal drama shouldn't be moderated. If someone calls you a bad name and it is really affecting you, blacklist them and move on.

Likewise, for members of the staff, if you are offended by what a community member is saying, I understand that it is certainly within your right to do whatever the heck you want, because it is your server, and again, this is not a service. Personally, I am not a big fan of censorship in general. Almost all situations resolve on their own without authority intervention, and people aren't going to up and kill each other over it. If someone is "creating crisis", they're not going to pull a knife on their neighbour. Yes, some people might get salty and speak in aggressive text tones, but that's about the worst that can happen. I think that's just how people are and there is no need for external moderation.

Careful now, there was that old guy that tried to kill some kid over losing a Fortnite game. You never know when some guy trash talks after winning a PVP and is never seen again.