MabiPro: The Authentic Old-School Mabinogi Experience

In Mabinogi, and particularly MabiPro, the 3 races have pretty strict identities. The giant is the melee specialist, elves are the ranged specialists, and humans are the jacks of all trades.

I would argue that humans' "jack of all trades and master of none" is not rewarded in our version of Mabinogi. In almost all cases utility doesn't matter and you just want to pump out the most damage possible, so having access to all but weaker overall skillsets is worse than having a specialized one. This means that races that specialize, like giants and elves, have a strict advantage. And you can't make humans "better" very easily without just making them superior to elves or giants either. One way or another, being careless with random buffs to skills and such often leads to endless balancing cycles. One thing is always the best thing, so it can be a frustrating effort to try to bring things in line with each other by just changing numbers.

One way to minimize this is to avoid homogeny by pushing identities further in game design. As I mentioned, each race has an identity currently, but specialists are much better than the jack of all, since raw damage is usually all that matters. However, humans can have their jack of all trades identity improved and made more viable by giving them more powerful and meaningful hybrid weapons.

The dev team seem to have played with this idea with things like dreamcatchers or the Ilanga Mace, for giants. The problem with weapons like dreamcatchers is that they trade off too much. Both melee and alchemy are weaker when using a dreamcatcher compared to using standard weapons. I understand the reasoning is "you get to do two things at once, so they should be weaker than their counterparts that can only do one thing at a time". Maybe that's sound if utility was really rewarded, or there was some clear and meaningful benefit to sacrificing damage for utility. But that's almost never the case, and tab weapon swapping just means you can have actually viable weapons in your primary and auxiliary slots and mostly accomplish the same thing as wielding a hybrid weapon. Why would I use a dreamcatcher with lower damage for both melee and alchemy when I could just use dual swords in one set and a cylinder in the other, for example? The only drawback is that it occupies 2 slots, so I'd have to manage my inventory/equips more if I want to change to other weapon types. But that's pretty much just a minor inconvenience, so the hybrid weapons have to be competitive with existing weapons of each type that they are amalgamating to be worth considering.

So, to push the "jack of all trades" identity and give humans more reason to be played than their giant and elvish counterparts, I think humans could use some human-exclusive weapons, but with the key point that they already play into their strengths and don't rely on gimmicks. For example, one of the strengths of humans is dual wielding. What if there was something like a 1h dyal-wieldable sword that had competitive melee stats (that is to say, it competes well with weapons like battleswords, which are meta) and was also a cylinder? Or, maybe it's a 1h sword with good stats that is also a wand? Maybe it's a sword that when dual wielded, allows you to also use bow skills (this is probably unlikely, but damn, it'd be cool). Just a few quick examples, but hybrid weapons being on par in stats with their single-weapon-type counterparts is what would be required to make hybrid weapons worth considering, and would be a good way to make having multiple equal (but overall worse than specialized counterparts) skillsets an actual "plus" for humans.

Humans' damage would still be lower compared to specialized races, but they would have a different playstyle as a result of unique weapons, compared to elves and giants.

Just thought I'd put my ideas out there.

Charging up Flame Burst and then pointing your swords at an enemy and burnerizing them!!!!!

I would say that Giants aren't massively better than humans at melee currently, though the point still stands that some tweaks could easily make them stronger despite Battle Sword artisan meta. And. You know. Giants can't do ranged.

The fact that Giants have the Ilanga Mace is certainly a thing, though. And it sorta speaks to a problem where hybrid weapons are made randomly and don't really benefit anybody aside from (hoo boy) the dev who made them, usually. Like, the devs are making the custom content, but at one point or another it'd be cool to get something that had a broad appeal.

Just want to throw out that human does have 1 thing that you could say is part of being ''jack of all trades'' that is favorable for them and that is having dual wield options that boost both high crit and high damage.

Giants have stronger WM and stronger smash than humans, but only one of them with a specific equip. Dual wield giant wins in WM damage (but not by much really due to the recent dragon sword addition) due to their iron mace ego but sacrifices the ability to crit smash in high level content since their crit tanks because of it. A giant using 2h sword + enchanted shield will win in smash damage (since they can reach enough crit without sacrificing too much damage in return) thanks to the 2h multiplier for smash, but still not by too much really since dual wielding does have quite a bit more damage still due to how both weapons affect the skill, it just doesn't have the bigger multiplier which is more noticeable with higher base damage (aka for endgame players).

If giants didn't have the advantage of having a charge that can at least do some damage (because human charge hits like a wet noodle) and the ability to charge without shield, I'd personally say that going human would most of the time be the better choice compared to giants, since although giants can dish out more damage with one of the two main damage dealing melee skills of their choice, humans can do both very well with one set of weapons and I personally don't think having human archery is something that doesn't amount to adding nothing of value to the race (yes its inferior to elves, but not to the point of irrelevance).

That being said, I agree that current hybrid weapons aren't weapons made for min-maxing, since you sacrifice too much for minor additions. They are more something to have fun with, or possibly run at lower content or something. As far as I know some people do like rapiers, but mainly due to the fact that they are cost efficient weapons that are decent at spamming bolts.

Having a shieldless charge that does good damage and higher strength gain per level as well as a faster smash (1.6 seconds versus 2 seconds), plus access to a +2 cc fireball weapon with reasonable stats that even boosts full swing makes giants pretty appealing in my opinion. Ranged for humans is not completely trivial but it is so far behind elves' that it's not a "reason" to play human on its own. Comparatively though, you are right that humans are not as far behind giants in terms of melee performance.

Part of the reason I made this post now is because there has been a lot of discussion around buffs to giants, particularly to smash having a 600% multiplier, which really means giants would smash for 828% with smash set (x1.15) and 2h sword (x1.2) (very viable for giants, as you mentioned) versus a maximum of 575% for humans with their preferred setup of dual wielding with smash set (and whether humans should use smash set is up to preference). You might say humans could wield 2h swords too to reach 690% smash damage, but it would be an overall loss for humans to do so. Giants don't get crippled as much in wm damage from using 2h like humans do because they also get to wear a shield while doing so for a potential 20 max damage from enchants (but yes again sacrificing some crit).

My point is that should giants get this buff as I see as quite likely, it will very much make humans unappealing on any front, being too far behind both elves and giants for the primary skillsets available in the game. Buffing giants pushes their identity as the melee specialist, so I thought it would only make sense to try to give a reason to play humans. Even with competitive hybrid weapons like I said, I don't even think it's that much of a buff for humans either since it would not make their damage on par. It would just give them some potentially interesting utilities, and make for "fun" playstyles that didn't harm their existing damage with meta weapons.

Sounds like a neat idea actually, but aren't you forgetting that there's a jack of all trades skill set that humans could get bonuses in? Something that has been mostly ignored in the newer content that makes sense for humans, who have neither the physical strength of giants nor the magical aptitude and dexterity that elves have, to specialize in?

There are plenty of easy to implement things you could do to make it better for humans, like the off hand cylinder thing live did. Granted you couldn't give it the bonuses you get on live, but it would allow you to have a substantial bonus to the damage for alchemy as a human even if it only increased the elemental affinity bonuses of alchemy and didn't have upgrades. either that or an extra "cylinder" enchant slot would give them an actual solid class identity in the same way that giants get full cleave in trans and elves get .5 load magnum and double damage with their base attack as well as higher int.

It might need further balancing as this is just an idea (and probably overpowered without looking more into it) but as it is now alchemy could use a buff similar to this anyway and making it for humans would definitely give them that kind of identity you're speaking of. Alchemy really isn't in a good spot right now compared to other classes without abusing golems so a buff seems warranted either way.

Since adding skills (AFAIK) isn't possible, and the only thing we (well, the GMs) can do is either tweak skills or add new weapons, there might not be much that can really be done. Sure, you can add X weapon or tweak X skill, but then others would complain about it and endless balances might ensue like OP stated.

However, one major issue I have with elves and giants are their transformations. Compared to elves and giants, human trans-be it DK or pally, are complete trash. Paladins for their 'unique" skill get some extra prot (which can be even lower than the prot and/or def they were getting from the title they had on before transforming!), big whoop. DK's get it even worse. Sure-you can get that glorious 180% stat boost at the sacrifice of a 60% stat and all of the passive defense skills always activate (at the sacrifice of lower overall protection from any and all damage sources, along with a lower melee ping rate-20% compared to 30% of the others). Their unique skill is completely useless however. When is the last time you ever saw someone fomor control anything? Never, that's when.

Elves and giants on the other hand get actual useful skills (full swing and magic missle). What I'd like to see is a tweak or buff to Paladins and DKs. Make DK's skill actually useful, like a stat boost to the monster(s) they take over ala lives soul link with pets. That would be INSANELY useful, as DK's are insanely squishy compared to all the others (aside from elves, but they are meant to be more of a glass cannon). As for Paladins, make them tankier, not a ton, but more-so than they are so that they don't actually lose defense by transforming. Their "role" if they really have any, is to protect others and soak up damage. But they can't really do that with the measley 15 def and 6 prot at rank 1.

Any thoughts?

I think it'd be sweet if human transformations could get cool active skills, but since adding skills isn't really possible for now, I don't see it happening. Control of darkness is completely useless, especially since taming mostly makes it obsolete. The skill would have to be replaced completely imo. However, your other points about DK being bad are pretty untrue. Dark knight is the singlebest transformation in the game, and it is human's saving grace.

You can remain in the dark knight transformation indefinitely in the endgame, as you make more than enough money from spamming missions while transformed to sustain the cost of chugging potions to stay transformed. My issue with infinite DK is that it represents too much of the power budget for humans. In the context of lategame/endgame, if not for DK, I'm of the opinion that humans are strictly inferior to elves and giants. Even when transformed, humans fall behind elves in my opinion, although they are likely stronger than an untranformed giant in most aspects. Being infinitely transformed/mashing pots forces a certain playstyle and has some drawbacks as well, such as not being able to use magic (because you have 0 int) and not being able to eat MP pots (unless you are using ranged in DK, because eating MP pots when pot poisoned lowers your strength).

Even though I use infinite trans myself, because it is a powerful tool for humans, I still think it is an "unbalanced" thing, not in that it makes humans too powerful, but mostly that it has too much of human's power budget, like I said. I think the idea of transformation is that you get a significant power increase for a short period of time, and the elf and giant transformations do this very well by having a clear timeframe, and also you get access to a powerful skill during it. Paladin fails to do this as it is lackluster, and not having a trans skill is just indisputably bad compared to elves and giants. Then on the other hand, dark knight is unequivocally better than paladin because you can stay in it infinitely. I could expand more on the topic of transformations but it's a bit beside the point of my thread.

15 of the top 20 players are humans. If giants and elves truly were superior dps machines, wouldn't you see more of them in the rankings? Being a jack of all trades helps prevent player burnout, letting them change to any playstyle and do viable damage whenever. Elves can't use dual wield or 2h weapons, so melee is almost completely out of the question for them (and you could argue higher mp costs for elves suck as well). Giants can't use ranged at all, and have terrible int scaling. Humans can face any threat, regardless of stander, and still expect viable damage, while the other races may seem to have better numbers in their respective fields, lose out when they need to switch to an alternate style.

There is a lot of power in being able to stay in trans as long as you have some way to regen your health, something that is that little push to why you barely see paladins, so much so that I could see them trying to buff other race's transformations, considering how good of a spot humans already are in.
_________________________
Don't get into the Totemizer.

I would at least like to see a buff to Paladins def/prot. The amount they get even at rank 1 is abysmal. A title shouldn't give you more prot or def than the highest rank of paladin does, it defeats the purpose of their "unique ability".

Make humans able to charge. Having a skill locked by having to use a shield is irritating.

I wouldn't do that, giants have that as one of their unique abilities, and it makes sense for them to not need a shield. Would it make sense IRL for some random human to go charging at something without a weapon or shield? Not really. But...a giant could simply due to them being, well... giant. More mass to throw around.

I said nothing about having no weapons. It makes perfect sense to be able to charge without a shield. That being a unique thing for giants is a fair argument though.

The reason I said humans can't charge without a shield makes sense. Giants are bigger than most mobs in the game, so they should be able to literally push them out of the way due to there being much more mass to hit them with. Humans on the other hand are about as big as most mobs, it would be like a regular American football game. Both sides would just kind of... slam into each other and not move too much, but slam a shield into them and they'll probably stumble a bit.

Shieldless charge is possible for humans in modern Mabinogi and I feel like it makes sense design-wise. Thematically it makes a bit less sense, but I personally value balance/gameplay over thematic design.

From a gameplay design/balance standpoint, giants not requiring a shield to charge makes less sense than for humans. Like I mentioned, things should generally play into class' strengths. Humans don't really use charge because using a shield is generally bad. The only opportunity there is to use a shield as a human is when wielding cylinders in the auxiliary slot. The main equipment will almost always be dual swords. Sometimes I don't use a cylinder either, and use a bow instead. Then you are completely locked out of charge.

To me, it makes no sense that giants are still strong when using a 2h sword + shield combo, but don't need to use a shield to charge, and humans are awful when using a shield but do need a shield to charge.

Not giving humans shieldless charge boils down to crab mentality, if you ask me, because the only reason not to is "it's a giant-unique thing ". Giants have other powerful/unique things about them, especially if smash does get buffed. So if that's the reasoning, I'd say it's not super good. Giving humans shieldless charge would be awesome. The only other way to make charge useful for humans would be to make shield usage more viable, and would require some dramatic change such as allowing humans to wield new 1h weapons that had the 2h tag (to give smash bonus and access to 2h enchants), or making some crazy shield-exclusive enchants (which would also buff giants, but maybe by a bit much).

However, not super sure giving humans shieldless charge is even possible as it would require changing the skill. It may be possible, but I think the most likely solution would probably be that humans get giant's charge, as it's a separate skill, and everyone's charge ranks would get reset. I'd be ok with that personally but it's a little more complicated.

Considering that elves and humans need a (fairly rare) re-forge in order to charge w/o a shield on live (can be considered a magic buff of some sort), it still wouldn't make sense to give them a shield-less charge for free. Sure, there is an argument to be made about balance, but there's also the argument that giving that ability to all classes would be unbalanced as well. If we're going to change the fundamentals of charge, then here's what I suggest. Make it so charge only effects things related to your size, race and charge rank.

Since giants are objectively the strongest melee race and the largest, they should get an all around modifier of being able to charge things 1.5-1.75 times their size.
Humans are well-rounded, so make them have a modifier of 1.1-1.25
And since elfscrubs are weaksauce, they get a modifier of .7-.8

As for charge rank scaling, I would say every rank adds a .1% modifier to size with rank F starting at .1% added modifier, so a rank 1 would be able to charge something an additional 1.5X my size (though we can go to 1 technically there is no modifier past 6, so the cap is effectively an extra 1.0X added modifier)

No one is going to code something so convoluted.

I did say "If we're going to change the fundamentals of charge", besides, this is a suggestions post. It's not like I expect it to even go past a post on a thread.

Seeing as Giant smash did get buffed today, I would think this discussion is particularly relevant.

wonder if human charge could be locked to using a shield OR using heavy armor (or both, obviously). that could be an interesting compromise that also makes heavy armor more relevant.

it's also "thematic" given the main thematic idea behind charge is to rush through arrows to hit an archer, and historically full metal body armor helped mitigate the need for shields in performing such feats

perhaps the new enchant slot for heavy armors could be used to grant the ability to charge without a shield?