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Would making Mp 30 pots buyable from a shop help make magic less annoying to use?
Yes
No
Multiple voting is not allowed.
27 users have voted so far.
Mana Pots
Posted at 04-10-17, 07:45 am Link | #1
As it stands now a mage uses up his or her mana in a couple rooms or does nothing. Playing as a mage ends up being more of a chore than a fun play style.
If we could buy mp pots from magic shops like melee and range can buy stam pots from healer, or alchemist can from Alch shop it would make Mage more viable.
The damage is already there, but being able rely on your supply of mana is not, you can buy pots from players but those are far and few between, you can pick up drops in runs, but you end up using those in the run.
This would kill the value of MP 30s for players selling, but MP 10, 50, 100, ect would still hold their values. Imagine how difficult those other styles would be if you couldn't buy stam pots or alchemy crystals in shops.
Magic would still be just as slow as it is and would still do the same damage, Mages would just not have as many expenses as they currently do.
If we could buy mp pots from magic shops like melee and range can buy stam pots from healer, or alchemist can from Alch shop it would make Mage more viable.
The damage is already there, but being able rely on your supply of mana is not, you can buy pots from players but those are far and few between, you can pick up drops in runs, but you end up using those in the run.
This would kill the value of MP 30s for players selling, but MP 10, 50, 100, ect would still hold their values. Imagine how difficult those other styles would be if you couldn't buy stam pots or alchemy crystals in shops.
Magic would still be just as slow as it is and would still do the same damage, Mages would just not have as many expenses as they currently do.
Posted at 04-10-17, 10:46 am Link | #2
Posts: 2147In the grand scheme of things, I'm not sure that this accomplishes what you intend.
Posted at 04-10-17, 10:48 am Link | #3
to do this, i'd want a balance set on price, and it would have to take potion making into careful consideration. I've intentionally got some ranks in that skill, for reasons like this. Making pots more easily available creates competition for those who would sell pots they've made.
You'd have to careefully balance the price, with availability of pots for one who's determined to get them as a drop, with herbalism, and with the overall damage of magic. Cuz int magic is just pure cc during this generation, beyond melee and archery, and end game alchemy i assume. Atm, i'm going to say no, just cuz i don't see enough details to satisfy me this would be comfortably implemented.
_________________________
Discord: Tonkatunk#7079
https://github.com/Tonkatunk/Mabi-Pro-Lazyfae-Mods
You'd have to careefully balance the price, with availability of pots for one who's determined to get them as a drop, with herbalism, and with the overall damage of magic. Cuz int magic is just pure cc during this generation, beyond melee and archery, and end game alchemy i assume. Atm, i'm going to say no, just cuz i don't see enough details to satisfy me this would be comfortably implemented.
_________________________
Discord: Tonkatunk#7079
https://github.com/Tonkatunk/Mabi-Pro-Lazyfae-Mods
Posted at 04-10-17, 01:42 pm Link | #4
As it stands now a mage uses up his or her mana in a couple rooms or does nothing. Playing as a mage ends up being more of a chore than a fun play style.
If we could buy mp pots from magic shops like melee and range can buy stam pots from healer, or alchemist can from Alch shop it would make Mage more viable.
The damage is already there, but being able rely on your supply of mana is not, you can buy pots from players but those are far and few between, you can pick up drops in runs, but you end up using those in the run.
This would kill the value of MP 30s for players selling, but MP 10, 50, 100, ect would still hold their values. Imagine how difficult those other styles would be if you couldn't buy stam pots or alchemy crystals in shops.
Magic would still be just as slow as it is and would still do the same damage, Mages would just not have as many expenses as they currently do.
If we could buy mp pots from magic shops like melee and range can buy stam pots from healer, or alchemist can from Alch shop it would make Mage more viable.
The damage is already there, but being able rely on your supply of mana is not, you can buy pots from players but those are far and few between, you can pick up drops in runs, but you end up using those in the run.
This would kill the value of MP 30s for players selling, but MP 10, 50, 100, ect would still hold their values. Imagine how difficult those other styles would be if you couldn't buy stam pots or alchemy crystals in shops.
Magic would still be just as slow as it is and would still do the same damage, Mages would just not have as many expenses as they currently do.
don't take me wrong, I do think Magic should have a touch up, but as the game currently stands, you DO NOT NEED MP 30 pots on the shops, you get them from doing ptjs and doing a few Rabbie dungeons(heck I had a pet FULL of MP's 30, ended up NPC'ng some for space.)
If you don't know how to Mage, don't Mage.
In the grand scheme of things, I'm not sure that this accomplishes what you intend.
I agree with this. Honestly, if you couldn't buy stamina potions either, that would be pretty cool too. And by pretty cool, I mean it would inflict a world of pain on melee. You know: the world of pain that archers and mages already endure.
The reason mages feel a little gimped out by MP pots is because of GOD AWFUL mana regin with meditation, mana evap, and the fact that most monsters in the early portion of the game drop MP 10s while everything else is dropping 30s for hp and sp. All of my characters have well over 5 stacks of HP30s and a few stacks of SP 30s but rarely will I have any amount of MP pots that aren't 10s. Hell, I have gotten more MP 10s from afk fishing on my human than anything else.
Making pots have value is nice (well I mean, the 30s spam of Hp and SP due to the 2x drop rate though...), and I feel like that should stay. We don't need mana pots in the shops, if ANYTHING MP10s sold for a similar price to the hp and sp 30s they sell. I would suggest allowing us to make those ME or SE (whatever it was in live) MP pots using the mushrooms. They're just the ones that lower the pot poisoning rate by a bit for a lil extra work.
Magic feels very "Why am I doing this..." early on (similar to elf range imo~ Missmisssmissss) but turns fun by the time you get an int magic (normally imo) Everything about it is EXTREMELY pricey and time consuming compared to the other play styles, even alch has cost my giant less, and it doesn't hybrid too well with anything other than it's bolts unless you want to smack something with a wand and lower it's dura faster for a pretty gold piece. The only mage play that truly hybrids well is blaze and melee because a blaze wand isn't all that bad for melee in the first place.
Making pots have value is nice (well I mean, the 30s spam of Hp and SP due to the 2x drop rate though...), and I feel like that should stay. We don't need mana pots in the shops, if ANYTHING MP10s sold for a similar price to the hp and sp 30s they sell. I would suggest allowing us to make those ME or SE (whatever it was in live) MP pots using the mushrooms. They're just the ones that lower the pot poisoning rate by a bit for a lil extra work.
Magic feels very "Why am I doing this..." early on (similar to elf range imo~ Missmisssmissss) but turns fun by the time you get an int magic (normally imo) Everything about it is EXTREMELY pricey and time consuming compared to the other play styles, even alch has cost my giant less, and it doesn't hybrid too well with anything other than it's bolts unless you want to smack something with a wand and lower it's dura faster for a pretty gold piece. The only mage play that truly hybrids well is blaze and melee because a blaze wand isn't all that bad for melee in the first place.
Posted at 04-10-17, 07:19 pm Link | #7
I personally believe magic should be touched up, but not simply by adding MP pots into shops.
I think doing other indirect means such as removing mana evaporation and increase the enchanced MP regen during night time to be a more meaningful change gameplay wise and would keep the original and intended design still in tact.
There are of course a lot of other things that could also be touched up in the process, but those are just two off the top of my head that could go into account for this one example.
I think doing other indirect means such as removing mana evaporation and increase the enchanced MP regen during night time to be a more meaningful change gameplay wise and would keep the original and intended design still in tact.
There are of course a lot of other things that could also be touched up in the process, but those are just two off the top of my head that could go into account for this one example.
Posted at 04-10-17, 07:45 pm Link | #8
mana shield. no.
Posted at 04-10-17, 09:40 pm Link | #9
After considering this idea a lot I agree with Slayerj and Rion. Mages do need some attention (as the numerous, numerous threads regarding them would indicate, mine among them) but this might not be the best way to accomplish it. I voted yes because it's better than continuing to do nothing, but other solutions would be preferable.
As it stands now a mage uses up his or her mana in a couple rooms or does nothing. Playing as a mage ends up being more of a chore than a fun play style.
If we could buy mp pots from magic shops like melee and range can buy stam pots from healer, or alchemist can from Alch shop it would make Mage more viable.
The damage is already there, but being able rely on your supply of mana is not, you can buy pots from players but those are far and few between, you can pick up drops in runs, but you end up using those in the run.
This would kill the value of MP 30s for players selling, but MP 10, 50, 100, ect would still hold their values. Imagine how difficult those other styles would be if you couldn't buy stam pots or alchemy crystals in shops.
Magic would still be just as slow as it is and would still do the same damage, Mages would just not have as many expenses as they currently do.
If we could buy mp pots from magic shops like melee and range can buy stam pots from healer, or alchemist can from Alch shop it would make Mage more viable.
The damage is already there, but being able rely on your supply of mana is not, you can buy pots from players but those are far and few between, you can pick up drops in runs, but you end up using those in the run.
This would kill the value of MP 30s for players selling, but MP 10, 50, 100, ect would still hold their values. Imagine how difficult those other styles would be if you couldn't buy stam pots or alchemy crystals in shops.
Magic would still be just as slow as it is and would still do the same damage, Mages would just not have as many expenses as they currently do.
don't take me wrong, I do think Magic should have a touch up, but as the game currently stands, you DO NOT NEED MP 30 pots on the shops, you get them from doing ptjs and doing a few Rabbie dungeons(heck I had a pet FULL of MP's 30, ended up NPC'ng some for space.)
If you don't know how to Mage, don't Mage.
A normal potion rule for a llot games is to balance potion consumption. Not distribution. The current set up is simply not logical .
1
Posted at 04-12-17, 06:02 am Link | #11
As it stands right now, Melee is able to easily buy and spam stam potions so they're able to use skills more often than usual, Magic has been thrown in the mud and stomped on for the entirety of this servers lifetime. We get Mana Evaporation, I don't see Melee losing stam when they switch their weapon, same with Alchemy. It's almost impossible to enjoy this game when I can't even do simple bolt spells without having to farm for Mana pots while Melee simply purchases stam pots and is ready to go. I voted for yes because I hate seeing one class have the upper hand against another.
Posted at 04-12-17, 11:22 am Link | #12
As it stands right now, Melee is able to easily buy and spam stam potions so they're able to use skills more often than usual, Magic has been thrown in the mud and stomped on for the entirety of this servers lifetime. We get Mana Evaporation, I don't see Melee losing stam when they switch their weapon, same with Alchemy. It's almost impossible to enjoy this game when I can't even do simple bolt spells without having to farm for Mana pots while Melee simply purchases stam pots and is ready to go. I voted for yes because I hate seeing one class have the upper hand against another.
That's somewhat one sided. You say upper hand, but you're not pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of different classes. Yes, magic has mana evaporation, pathetic recovery rate, and has to pretty much rely on pots. No, how it works is not the same as the other classes really. Bolts are cheaper, but in return specialize in single target. Int magic is meant for multiple target, and not set up to just spam on a single target, in return longer cast times and heavier mp drain. I mean, let a mage charge fireball before opening a chest in a dungeon, now compare his damage to a windmiller. The difference should be obvious. Mage, while it may be slower at preparing and heavier on draining, is just better crowd control for the most part. Thunder has insane stun at r1, ice spear has the shatter effect, and fireball is massive area and high damage potential.
There's also the matter of each spell is an element, and there are enemies who are strong or weak against different elements, letting you play this to your advantage, even if not a game changer. Yes, melee and archery can apply elementals to their gear, but say they have all ice and go in a Theatre Mission. If they find ice spiders, they're gonna have a difficult time clearing without taking off pretty much everything but their weapons, or unless they have multiple elemental types on them, able to change at a moment's notice. And in return, they take a hit that much harder as well.
Point should be clear enough without going too much into archery, or even alchemy. The strengths and weaknesses of each needs to be considered before making a change. Having easy access to mp pots, pretty much everyone would be mage in a few months just cuz it'd be the best room clearer, and the only notable drawback, after you're able to keep a steady income of gold, would be mana evaporation, which won't be a big deal if you keep pots and are doing mostly mage, and cast times. I've seen it on live, i've done it on live. Never considered myself a mage, but as updates introduce new skills and change old one some, i'll branch into those skills for stats or test their effectiveness in different situations, then use the skills when i feel they're efficient. Which, after magic renovation, led to me using magic for most everything, despite the fact i didn't build up with the intent of being mage, it just kinda happened.
_________________________
Discord: Tonkatunk#7079
https://github.com/Tonkatunk/Mabi-Pro-Lazyfae-Mods
Posted at 04-12-17, 06:46 pm Link | #13
You say mages wouldn't have as much expenses, but you don't realize that if you put MP30s in shops, you are adding extra expenses anyways. My Firebolt costs 7 mana a charge. With chaincast, it becomes more. One MP30 is good for 3 bolts, and sometimes that's not even enough to take an enemy out. A Stam 30 is far better for melee cause their skills use less stamina for more damage output. 2 stam for a double basic with dual weild? Meanwhile Magic has to use 5-8 mana for one attack, and that does about 100-200 damage single target. Meanwhile a warrior can expend about 7 stam to load wm and deal 400+ to all enemies around them in a sizable radius.
You really think MP30s are going to impact anything? An entire stack of them would fill my mana bar from empty to full, and I run through that mana just as quickly. All you are doing is making me toss more money than buying the 50s or 100s from players. You can add em, but in the long run, probably won't help
You really think MP30s are going to impact anything? An entire stack of them would fill my mana bar from empty to full, and I run through that mana just as quickly. All you are doing is making me toss more money than buying the 50s or 100s from players. You can add em, but in the long run, probably won't help
You say mages wouldn't have as much expenses, but you don't realize that if you put MP30s in shops, you are adding extra expenses anyways. My Firebolt costs 7 mana a charge. With chaincast, it becomes more. One MP30 is good for 3 bolts, and sometimes that's not even enough to take an enemy out. A Stam 30 is far better for melee cause their skills use less stamina for more damage output. 2 stam for a double basic with dual weild? Meanwhile Magic has to use 5-8 mana for one attack, and that does about 100-200 damage single target. Meanwhile a warrior can expend about 7 stam to load wm and deal 400+ to all enemies around them in a sizable radius.
You really think MP30s are going to impact anything? An entire stack of them would fill my mana bar from empty to full, and I run through that mana just as quickly. All you are doing is making me toss more money than buying the 50s or 100s from players. You can add em, but in the long run, probably won't help
You really think MP30s are going to impact anything? An entire stack of them would fill my mana bar from empty to full, and I run through that mana just as quickly. All you are doing is making me toss more money than buying the 50s or 100s from players. You can add em, but in the long run, probably won't help
Having easy access to mp pots, pretty much everyone would be mage in a few months just cuz it'd be the best room clearer, and the only notable drawback, after you're able to keep a steady income of gold, would be mana evaporation, which won't be a big deal if you keep pots and are doing mostly mage, and cast times. I've seen it on live, i've done it on live.
I'm not talking short term. I'm talking about the difficult dungeons and long term. Magic has more of an impact in those scenarios. And again, when you get a steady income of gold, easy access to the pots means gold isn't a concern, and you'll just abuse the crap outta it in high end areas, because the cost won't be a factor. And, repeating myself even more, i'm speaking from experience. I've seen this on live, i've done this on live.
I'm sure we'll see people dedicated to selling pots, but as they get them regularly, sell them regularly, they'll start getting regular customers as well. It'll become more of a chore for them to keep up with the demand, without a lot of other potion suppliers out there. It'll hit the point where people will want to balance the efficiency and price of npc pots, with player sold ones for a while, before the market breaks enough that the pots sold by players will become more desirable.
And if you want to look at the effects of short term to long term, the actual range of that time, then what do you think is going to happen when people who can afford pots at say, 10k/stack for mp 30's, grind the living daylights outta magic using those, and then we see things changes in the future? Maybe pots are cheaper, because players are supplying loads of mp pots in the future, so npc ones need rebalanced. Maybe they're made more expensive or removed, because of being abused to quickly train magic with little to no effort. Playerbase won't respond well to either of those, because the ones yet to train magic, even in the process of training it, or use them to clear difficult areas, will either want their money back, or feel entitled because people abused the pots before and they want to abuse them now, 'in the sense of fairness.'
I think it'd be better to heavily criticize the magic skills, and give them honest rebalances rather than adding mp pots to the shop. We may run into similar complaints from players, but i think it'd be more beneficial to the community as a whole, than simply having easily accessible pots.
_________________________
Discord: Tonkatunk#7079
https://github.com/Tonkatunk/Mabi-Pro-Lazyfae-Mods
As it stands right now, Melee is able to easily buy and spam stam potions so they're able to use skills more often than usual, Magic has been thrown in the mud and stomped on for the entirety of this servers lifetime. We get Mana Evaporation, I don't see Melee losing stam when they switch their weapon, same with Alchemy. It's almost impossible to enjoy this game when I can't even do simple bolt spells without having to farm for Mana pots while Melee simply purchases stam pots and is ready to go. I voted for yes because I hate seeing one class have the upper hand against another.
That's somewhat one sided. You say upper hand, but you're not pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of different classes. Yes, magic has mana evaporation, pathetic recovery rate, and has to pretty much rely on pots. No, how it works is not the same as the other classes really. Bolts are cheaper, but in return specialize in single target. Int magic is meant for multiple target, and not set up to just spam on a single target, in return longer cast times and heavier mp drain. I mean, let a mage charge fireball before opening a chest in a dungeon, now compare his damage to a windmiller. The difference should be obvious. Mage, while it may be slower at preparing and heavier on draining, is just better crowd control for the most part. Thunder has insane stun at r1, ice spear has the shatter effect, and fireball is massive area and high damage potential.
There's also the matter of each spell is an element, and there are enemies who are strong or weak against different elements, letting you play this to your advantage, even if not a game changer. Yes, melee and archery can apply elementals to their gear, but say they have all ice and go in a Theatre Mission. If they find ice spiders, they're gonna have a difficult time clearing without taking off pretty much everything but their weapons, or unless they have multiple elemental types on them, able to change at a moment's notice. And in return, they take a hit that much harder as well.
Point should be clear enough without going too much into archery, or even alchemy. The strengths and weaknesses of each needs to be considered before making a change. Having easy access to mp pots, pretty much everyone would be mage in a few months just cuz it'd be the best room clearer, and the only notable drawback, after you're able to keep a steady income of gold, would be mana evaporation, which won't be a big deal if you keep pots and are doing mostly mage, and cast times. I've seen it on live, i've done it on live. Never considered myself a mage, but as updates introduce new skills and change old one some, i'll branch into those skills for stats or test their effectiveness in different situations, then use the skills when i feel they're efficient. Which, after magic renovation, led to me using magic for most everything, despite the fact i didn't build up with the intent of being mage, it just kinda happened.
The problem most people really have with magic is the fact that unlike range, melee, and even alch, the early game is slow, expensive/time consuming, and punishing. If you take out using a wand and thus losing some of your damage and range, then it's still slow and expensive/time consuming.
Holyshit this is alot...
Posted at 04-15-17, 02:43 am Link | #16
Here's the deal with chain Casting....bigger potions are a WASTE. You only need enough mana for 1 charge to fully charge a chain-cast. Any mana above that is wasted because you COULD be getting 5 charges for the price of 1 if you simply used 10's. And drank one between shots.
10's are actually the most efficient for CC bolt Spam since you only spend the mana for 1 charge but get 5.
That lets you save your big ones for when you need to prep and chunk a Fireball or Thunder.
And since you're staying at essentially no mana, even Mana evaporation can be ignored.
10's are actually the most efficient for CC bolt Spam since you only spend the mana for 1 charge but get 5.
That lets you save your big ones for when you need to prep and chunk a Fireball or Thunder.
And since you're staying at essentially no mana, even Mana evaporation can be ignored.
Posted at 05-07-17, 08:17 pm Link | #17
for that, i would indeed agree that 30MP pot should be in shop. magic is such a pain in the #ss just because of that tho.
Posted at 05-10-17, 12:32 am Link | #18
for that, i would indeed agree that 30MP pot should be in shop. magic is such a pain in the #ss just because of that tho.
In the grand scheme of things wouldnt work, pot making in this version is a thing, and again repeating myself, you can easy get MP30 pots via healer ptj and rabbie runs wille ranking WM(remember, a mage without WM is a gimped mage) on top of all that was already suggested that mana preservation stones can be more "easy" made and that suggestion is all in all the best one Ive seen so far to make "mana problems" less of an issue.
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