MabiPro: The Authentic Old-School Mabinogi Experience

So recently we, (Uzuu and Excelsian) read some people talking about how one of the most unique things about Mabinogi is the classless system as in you can be whatever you want to be and rank whatever you want to rank. However, this is usually overlooked by the fact that, in order to reach your fullest potential in any given class, you must have a set of equipment with enchants that correspond to it. As a result, some hybrids are limited (you can't have a very effective spellsword as you would sacrifice melee damage for mana reduction/int enchants and so forth.) As a result, we were wondering how possible it would be to implement a system similar to the switching weapons hotkey, where you could press a button that changes your entire equipment to your second slot with the same rules as when you can switch your weapons (aka not being hit, not using a skill). More details as to how the system could potentially work at the end, but first some arguments regarding the idea.

We propose this for the following reasons:
1 - It would add completely new, strategic elements to the game-play. What is the best way to maximise your DPS with your character? Instead of maxing out one class you would be encouraged to explore other classes since you can more easily do reasonably well with those classes aswell besides just your main class.
2 - It gives end game players more versatility and more strength. Ofcourse there are downsides to this and people will scream that you can now be OP. Yes, character's will get stronger, but assuming these players have spent large amounts of time ranking extra skills and time farming for optimal equipment for these skills then they should be rewarded for that in terms of their strength. In a server like this where progression is fast it is important to keep giving people new goals to complete. This would be an interesting way to open up new pathways for those who wish to explore other avenues. When someone who is close to reaching their full potential/almost reached their full potential in a certain style of combat, it will take a long time for them to gather equipment for any other combat style to rival their main one. Because of this, there is a stronger reason to have multiple classes trained and it is more rewarding to spend your time/efforts into progressing two classes on your character.
3 - It doesn't just have to benefit "pro" players. It can benefit those who are just starting out as a hybrid to make them more viable in combat. You can have a mana reduction set with will o the wisp (which is a popular start for most mages) for when you want to use some magic, and switch to a fox/giant set if you want to switch to melee at some point while fighting (fox/giant being a good starter set for melee people, but terrible for mages)

There are cons to this ofcourse, the largest one we think being that while it would add a completely new element to combat, it would also reduce some strategy from the game. With this system you would not have to think of what you would be sacrificing to enhance your other class. An example of this would be putting Quartz on an accessory which can be used for a hybrid Archer/Melee class, whereas in this system you could just go for separate accessories, Stout for Melee and Light for Archers (Quartz giving 5 damage to both, whereas Stout gives 15 str to Melee and Light gives 15 dex.) However, with the new system I am proposing you can still use a hybrid build to save money, but you have the option to put in more effort to create two sets. If one wishes to save money they could by still going with the hybrid build, that does not become unviable. However, it will give those who do want the option to maximise their damage output the ability to if they put in the time and money to do so. Of course, one can already do what we propose by just un-equipping their melee equipment and switching to archer equipment, but doing this would be rather unviable when you want to do this during combat, making it only possible if you actively know beforehand you want to spend the entire fight using a certain combat style (with maximum efficiency).

Now, some details how we envisioned how this could potentially work.
First of all, just like how weapons have an auxiliary slot, the rest of what you wear would need an auxiliary slot (including/excluding robe, doesn't matter much). If this is possible to make. Since we have 0 clue what is possible due to coding, we envisioned three ways in how this could be implemented (with suggestion number one being the easiest but most undesirable, and number 3 being the most desirable option)

1. Make the equipment set switch together with your weapons. So when you press the button to switch weapons, you also switch the rest of your equipment set
2. Make the equipment set have their own hotkey to switch, separate from the weapon. This way, if one has not invested time yet to have a secondary set available for their second combat style, they can swap their weapons still, without swapping out their one single combat set they have (for example, if someone has 30dmg from str enchants and 20 dmg from max damage enchants on their melee set, but their archery set only has 15 dmg from dex, their melee set will still benefit archery more until they upgrade their archery set. So by allowing one to not swap their equipment whenever they swap weapons, people that only have one set can still use that one set for both weapons equipped).
3. Make the equipment set switch together with your weapons, but if any equipment slot on the auxiliary set is empty, equip the item from the main slot automatically when switching to the auxiliary set. We assume this solution is much harder to implement (if ANYTHING of what has been said so far is even possible), but it would be most desirable solution. For example, a warrior that has a full set of clothing (boots gloves suit hat and 2 accessories) with max damage enchants, could switch to the auxiliary slot with his incomplete mage set (mana reduction boots, gloves, hat with int enchants, but no gloves/accessories yet), and automatically equip the accessories/gloves from his warrior set on his mage set, which would, even when inferior to actual int enchanted stuff, still be beneficial to the mage compared to having nothing equipped (since max damage enchants still benefit mages somewhat).

The examples we have used have mainly been involving archery, melee and magic, but this system is especially useful for alchemists, since alchemy benefits quite a bit from their alchemy damage bonuses, while any other class gains nothing from it.

Now, we know that perhaps this idea is already impossible right from the start (as in, making an auxiliary set for the rest of equipment, or allowing the swapping between sets), but we have personally no idea if it is, so it is better to try. What do other people think of the idea of being able to swap equipment sets? Could there potentially be other ways to implement this system apart from the auxiliary slot idea? (We were personally thinking of perhaps having an auto-equip function like a lot of other MMOs have, where you can equip a set, save the hotkey to auto-equip that set and then whenever you press the hotkey, your gear gets unequipped and the set you saved on the hotkey gets equipped with the pieces that are in your inventory).

This most likely won't be the only time i add on to here but this is what i have been thinking about after reading this over a few times.

I dislike the idea as a whole. While i love being encouraged to use more than one set of armor/clothes (Cause fashion already makes me buy them so i need use for them), I think it would most def be just waaaay too strong. The balance just doesn't seem to be there with things like enchants which are to encourage a main style of play, but i think that may also be an answer in itself.

Enchants are great. They're really part of the whole min/max endgame goal, or so i assume since i'm bad and i just use enchants everyone says are the best. I think enchants can also be our bridge to hybrid builds as well, plus it would push more variety in enchant usage since most people have a set "build" of enchants that are deemed the best and most others are considered useless. Right now we seem to have a lot of enchants for min/maxing one class type. Most enchants give you what you want for your main set of skills (Let's say STR for a melee build) but then take away something in return for balancing (so possibly INT or max MP). This makes sense for balancing but what it does is tears apart hybrids. I think a fix for many hybrid players would be to simply make more useful hybrid enchants. STR and DEX are not too uncommon mainly due to DEX being used for the balance stat in combat but most people are more focused on the raw STR than the combo'd enchants since they're going for a heavy melee damage focus. And there are like 3-4 enchants total with both +STR and +INT and they're fairly awful in general. The only thing i can think of that might be more fitting for a hybrid character is min/max damage enchants. And if Min/Max are the best for hybrids (which honestly everyone will be by a certain level since you run out of things to rank in one "class") Then what's going to be the point of the other 90% of enchants late game? TL;DR More Hybrid enchants to encourage specific hybrid types.

Also to further my thoughts on hybrids with things like enchants.. What if there was a way to make melee weapons scale with different stats? Or maybe split the damage? Say you have a sword, which scale with STR, but make it so either 100% of the scaling is dropped from STR and instead scales with INT or DEX? Or even split it so it scales like 50/50 or 25/75? This would make melee for mages or rangers far more interesting and maybe you could even apply it to bows and wands. A combat wand that ACTUALLY hits things? A bow with INT scaling for magic archers? It could open up so much more for hybrid classes or just late game players in general. Now i'm not 100% on how the coding works or even how it would be applied but as a simple thought i assumed it would be just a special one time upgrade similar to Artisan upgrades. Or maybe an enchant similar to the currently damn near useless elementals, but more costly/rare of course. Or if this is too hard to do, since this would have to somehow be able to alter all enchantable weapons, why not come out with some new weapon variants? The PMG doesn't need to change much but you could just add different versions of a few existing weapons that would be used for this kind of thing. Start off with like 2-3 different weapons and slowly over time just add a few more here and there. It doesn't need to be a full 50+ weapon list right away since it's a fairly new concept and most players probably can't benefit off of it right away, anyway.

I think that's about all that's on my mind right now Sorry it wasn't exactly building off of the original idea too much but it's just the ideas it gave me.

Side Notes-
-About the enchants with say both STR and INT increases.. the idea isn't to make them broken. Maybe a high rank enchant could be like +15-30 of each, but nothing like +50 of each lol. Being reasonable, not OP.
-Also with the weapons.. i think anyone who has played the dark souls series will really understand what i mean since it uses a very similar "upgrade system" that this idea is sort of based on. So if you're confused by what i was typing but know dark souls.. think something like the changes in scalings based on the infusions used.

I like the idea of a second equipment slot. Not only to avoid making it tedious to change equipment but also because most fashionogi will love to simply have to press one key instead of changing manually all of their equipment from the combat one to the casual fashion one.

We won't forcefully want to change every single piece of equipment if one is already maxed for damages only and can benefit both melee and range for instance. So the best option I would have in mind would be to add the same I and II buttons for each equipment slot and make a key to change the weapon and a key to change the rest of equips. So if you only want to change your armor, you press the button but don't have to change everything with the key.

I suppose this is a hard-coded spaghetti part but if the I and II button part of the code for weapons can be "copy/pasted" for other equipment slots, it might be possible. (Just need to change the key bound to the switch).
In any case I feel like this is too much work at this stage of the customizations on this server and won't be implemented any time soon if ever.

I strongly disagree with this option Bonuta. Contrary to Dark souls, some stats are more difficult to get than others in mabinogi. A melee character would simply get int scaling melee weapons and raise int outrageously to max melee damages above all classic strength melee builds.

We don't have the same definition of broken. Aside two-handed enchants that can give high amount of str for balancing purpose, 15-20 is already high end str enchants (see peaceful ES for gauntlets, stout for accessories). So 15 of two stats is already broken in my opinion. I would say 5-10 of each stat is more reasonable if you want to make balanced hybrid sets.

I completely agree, it should not be equal to str. If it were to scale off Int it would have to be by a much lower percent and if it were to benefit from both str AND int i think it would have to scale even less from both. That's how balance works.

And my numbers i used were wrong, i get that, but it's a matter of showing "Should be more half and half compared to high of both stats". My bad on the numbers since i was thinking more concept and less of accuracy on the current values.

Edit: Just because it bothers me that i even have to put up some kind of data so it isn't mistaken and all of a sudden no one understands:

Melee weapons--
When equipped with any Melee Weapon except for Control Bars, Every 2.5 Str will add +1 to Maximum Damage; 3 Str adds +1 to Minimum Damage.

Dual Guns (Just as an example)--
Every 5 Str adds +1 to Maximum Dual Guns Damage; 6 Str adds +1 to Minimum Dual Guns Damage.
Every 5 Int adds +1 to Maximum Dual Guns Damage; 6 Int adds +1 to Minimum Dual Guns Damage

That is what i mean by scaling off of both. That's how you balance it. If it were INT-only scaling i imagine it would be something in between the melee weapon str (2.5 max, 3 min) and dual guns int scaling (5 max, 6 min). So most likely something like (4 max, 5 min) or something similar. Just thought i'd add this because clearly i wasn't understood and seeing as how Mabi already HAS done the double scaling it's clearly possible and not overly broken. It's just END game scaling more so than early game scaling.

SECOND EDIT: Was just thinking about it but i don't wish to change what is here.. i don't think int should scale = to Str in terms of.. i don't think someone with 400 int and 2 str should do the same as someone with 250 str and 2 int. I would much rather see int be able to use melee weapons WELL but not AS WELL as Melee. So maybe my (4 max, 5 min) should be more like (4.5 max, 5.5 min) or so.

Francisca base damage is 10 ~ 41.
We are going to use 250 str as a base and 400 int as a base.
Str (2.5 max, 3 min): 93 ~ 141
Int (4 max, 5 min): 90 ~ 141

While that makes it even i think INT-ONLY scaling should always be much less. It should be useful but not as good as Str. So some random changes:

Int (4.5 max, 5.5 min): 83 ~ 130
Int (5 max, 6 min): 76 ~ 121
Int (5 max, 7 min): 67 ~ 121
Int (10 max, 12 min): 43 ~ 81

It's really based on how well people would consider the int scaling alone. Even after all this i really dislike the concept of pure int scaling the more i see it but i'm still interested in the hybrid scaling. So let's say with drop the stats to show a hybrid of equal level. Maybe someone with a hard focus on early str and some magic as backup (mainly bolts) So maybe closer to 140 Str and 230 int:
Str ( 5 max, 6 min) + Int (5 max, 6 min)--
Str= +28 max, +23 min
Int= +46 max, +38 min
Hybrid Fran: 71 ~ 115

What this means is someone who is pure str about the same level would still do more damage than the hybrid character.. but the hybrid character would still do a respectable amount of damage. This also encourages late game hybrids since your scaling would increase multiple trees rather than hitting a wall once you max them out. If you finish everything that gives str in the game your weapon officially hit's a hard cap and it will never do more damage. This method would make that hard cap much higher but much harder to get as well.

It is nice that you provided data, but if we get melee weapons with those kind of numbers, every single person that does melee would switch to said weapon. If you look at how much int/str one can get (through skills alone, excluding levels, starting int/str etc.), you can see that in our version you can roughly get 248 str and 714 int (looking at humans only, since most people play humans). These numbers aren't completely accurate since we have bunshin and there might be other slight differences, but the differences shouldn't be too much. With the stats you suggested, you would get 192+ max damage from skill stats alone with skills capped(once again, keep in mind, excluding level up stats etc.), whereas currently melee weapons that go off by str only get 99+ max damage. You mention that mabinogi has already done double scaling and that it isn't overly broken, but the numbers that you show are clearly broken in our server. Since the GMs have mentioned that the intention that new content is to be on an equal or lower power level than what we have available at the moment, scaling on any new weapon with a dual system would have to be with every 10 str/int for 1 max and 12 for 1 minimum.

Although personally I think that it would be fine for any dual weapon to have a slightly more favourable scaling, since then it will achieve something similar to the system we suggested, providing players to have a slight edge over other players if you choose to invest more time into becoming stronger. If anything gets introduced with dual scaling, I think it will be very important that how the scaling is done is carefully chosen. Honestly all we wanted was more reason for the player-base to get more powerful in multiple branches of combat and dual scaling would be fine for that, we just found our system cooler and there would be more work you could do to achieve that goal for multiple sets (farming more enchants/gear in dungeons etc) rather than just obtaining a separate weapon and a set with dual enchants.

What you're literally suggesting there is "We don't want hybrids, we want to min-max TWICE". I respect the thought of course, it would encourage "hybrid" in the sense of doing both trees but you're honestly just trying to give reason to be pure melee(str) at one time and then change to pure range(dex) another. There would be no flow between the two since you'd have to tab, wait for the the switch, and depending on what you switch to it changes everything. And how would mage work? Suggesting i tab to switch to a full int armor set? Mana sets would be useless and wands? HA not with evap the second you switch off. You'd never be able to switch back to mage unless you're just chugging potions which is already a problem in itself. Don't get me wrong, i love the concept on paper.. but once you apply it i think it'll have too many problem (much like my own solution has it's own problems).

The one part i did feel a bit of concern with was the obtaining of a hybrid weapon. I like the idea of farming out more enchants/gear (though lets be real most gear is near useless in dungeons) and i think that's something that would really need to be considered in the planning of this. No hybrid weapon should drop too early in the game. What would a lvl 100 even want with a weapon they can't use right? And the drop rate should be very small. Maybe not TRINITY small but damn near. Make it a true reward for people wanting to go hybrid. Make them work for it. As for the enchants.. i think it should be the same concept. This should all be true late game content and i don't think any of it should be simple to obtain. Sure it would come down to you only having ONE set of armor and prob 2-3 different weapons but honestly i already hate that i carry around 12 different clothing sets because i have a fashion problem.. carrying around even more armor would just be annoying and with repairs and worrying about enchant success.. it sounds more daunting than it should be. But just my opinion, maybe people would rather work on multiple sets. Hell i'm sure you could manage a system where both hybrid weapons and this armor thing works. Also, side note on what red said.. Using it as a fashion tab is A+ thinking. Would love it for fast switching between town and dungeoning.

We've already been told that we can't get new skills introduced into our servers, so everything that hybrid will ever be is min-maxing twice (unless hybrids enchants is an idea that people would like, then it is min-maxing skills twice and just getting one equipment set meaning you get to spend less time essentially on the game to reach full potential). Introducing the ability to swap equipment set will have the same amount of flow that it currently has, which is being able to swap what combat style you use, but with swapping equipment you will be able to take advantage of its full potential rather than having it as a side thing.

Also, the arguments about magicians that you had (mana sets being useless if you are going to swap weapons and losing MP on wand switching) are already existing issues for any mage-something hybrid, not something neccessarily introduced by the idea that we have.


Most of the issues you have listed so far are arguments about magicians that are already existing issues (mana sets being useless if you are going to swap weapons and losing MP on wand switching) for any mage-something hybrid, not something neccessarily introduced by the idea that we have.



What do you mean gear is useless in dungeons. I mean, maybe defensive gear is useless (since I never bothered with it because I spend the majority of the time deadly, I can't say how usefull stacking defences is), but any gear enchanted for damage is far from useless.

And a question about your hybrid weapons. Personally we don't care too much whether weapons with more than just a single stat scaling get introduced as long as at their max potential (aka maxed out stats from skills etc.) they dont outclass current weapons by more than 10-20% or so, it would just mean that another weapon besides good artisan rolled battlesword becomes the staple and everyone switching to that. But were you actually thinking about having them serve multiple purposes or anything of the like? Since if weapons get introduced that can be effectively used as melee weapons (as in, they actually have decent damage to physically smack someone with) and are able to be used for a different combat style to some extent (as in, allowing ranged, alchemy or casting of fusion bolt/advanced magic), that would most likely be broken, unless they are at a significant enough penalty (extra mana cost, reduced amounts of damage etc.). Also, the idea would only really work as a combination between magic+anything els.

i would also love it if they give us more hotkey bars just this bar not enough tbh

Alright well i had typed out a lot, but as i neared the end i sort of realized something. Mages need fixed. That's my main issue with any idea of hybrids and it's just a pain. Mana needs some kind of adjustment so we can continue off that. Also your idea is great. A little too grindy and generic in my opinion but it could work. I also think different scaling weapons (my idea i was talking of) could bring a lot more variety and use for hybrids who want to be melee+something. With that said i would also love more true hybrid items like Pheonix Feather sword or Merlin Knuckles or even simply guard cylinders (as long as we get the mastery skill). They might not scale with other stats but they allow the use of other trees while retaining your melee combat and that's where real hybrid gameplay starts (i guess only if you're melee+ lol). Not switching randomly in a fight but being able to weave abilities correctly without having to stop. Plus i want some early game hybrid. I don't want to have to wait till i'm lvl 1k with 2 full trees maxed out. Your idea isn't bad, nor do i feel mine is, but i don't know if they're worth the actual effort to implement into the game. Maybe we should fix our current issues and go from there. IF your idea does happen, i'd love it still. Anything that furthers the longevity is good in my eyes.

So yeah. Fix mana problems, implement more existing hybrid items, and if we DO get more items like that... then your idea wouldn't be a bad sort of "cap" on the hybrid idea.