Authentic Old-School Mabinogi Experience
Archery discussion - Random distribution rule? (rev. 2 by Blackmore on 03-03-18, 08:26 pm)
Posted at 03-03-18, 08:05 pm Link | #1
Archery should NOT have 100% aim, but at the same time, having it on pure RNG base is an issue, at least from my view.
So, I would suggest two; feel free to offer thoughts
1) Random distribution rule.
Example (borrowed from dota 2 wiki)
Following this logic, lets set up a commonly agreed rate for archery (85%, for an instance? or make this value to be dependent on your DEX?)
So more you miss, more likely you will hit next time, eventhough there is a chance of missing. And chance is back to the agreed rate if you land a hit.
2) Let aim infleunce damage, rather than accurancy per se (if it ever does hah)
Combined with first rule, it should lessen the problem perhaps?
So, I would suggest two; feel free to offer thoughts
1) Random distribution rule.
The uniform or true random distribution describes the probability of random event that underlies no manipulation of the chance depending on earlier outcomes. This means that every "roll" operates independently.
The pseudo-random distribution (often shortened to PRD) in Dota 2 refers to a statistical mechanic of how certain probability-based items and abilities work. In this implementation the event's chance increases every time it does not occur, but is lower in the first place as compensation. This results in the effects occurring more consistently.
The probability of an effect to occur (or proc) on the Nth test since the last successful proc is given by P(N) = C × N. For each instance which could trigger the effect but does not, the PRD augments the probability of the effect happening for the next instance by a constant C. This constant, which is also the initial probability, is lower than the listed probability of the effect it is shadowing. Once the effect occurs, the counter is reset.
https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Random_distribution
The pseudo-random distribution (often shortened to PRD) in Dota 2 refers to a statistical mechanic of how certain probability-based items and abilities work. In this implementation the event's chance increases every time it does not occur, but is lower in the first place as compensation. This results in the effects occurring more consistently.
The probability of an effect to occur (or proc) on the Nth test since the last successful proc is given by P(N) = C × N. For each instance which could trigger the effect but does not, the PRD augments the probability of the effect happening for the next instance by a constant C. This constant, which is also the initial probability, is lower than the listed probability of the effect it is shadowing. Once the effect occurs, the counter is reset.
https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Random_distribution
Example (borrowed from dota 2 wiki)
Slardar's Bash of the Bash of the Deep has a 25% chance to stun the target. On the first attack, however, it only has an ~8.5% probability to bash. Each subsequent attack without a bash increases the probability by ~8.5%. So on the second attack, the chance is ~17%, on the third it is ~25.5%, etc. After a bash occurs, the probability resets to ~8.5% for the next attack. These probabilities average out so that, over a moderate period of time, Bash of the Deep procs nearly 25% of the time.
Following this logic, lets set up a commonly agreed rate for archery (85%, for an instance? or make this value to be dependent on your DEX?)
So more you miss, more likely you will hit next time, eventhough there is a chance of missing. And chance is back to the agreed rate if you land a hit.
2) Let aim infleunce damage, rather than accurancy per se (if it ever does hah)
Combined with first rule, it should lessen the problem perhaps?
Posted at 03-03-18, 08:52 pm Link | #2
I personally have no problem with archery the way it is now. I do play ranged elf for some background.
I find having a set rate of hit % as a bad idea. The normal system for aim % is fine and can be used efficiently when knowing range knockback and hit stun mechanics. Also, not really related to game mechanics, logically if you kept missing shots, you would get more frustrated and nervous when being approached by a monster. I assume this would cause you to miss more, not get bonus accuracy for missing.
Secondly, having the % meter influence damage incredibly decreases dps for range. the tradeoff for the % meter is you have a lower chance to hit, but if you are lucky, you can hit multiple times at low %. on the other hand, you can miss alot if you are unlucky. Restricting the % meter to damage output would lower dps for archers who have the probability to miss. There are trade offs to charging full shots and not charging shots. I've personally hit 7+ mags at ~40% and ive missed equal or more shooting at around the same %. Missing is a part of archery but you have the ability to dish out some good dps.
Lastly, cutting archer dps by the 2nd method, having % determine archery dmg, is unfair compared to other classes. That's like me saying, well melee users should have their damage cut by how much dura is missing on their swords. You do 1k wm but since you only have 5/10 dura, you actually do 500. It can lead to many other arguments about other classes if it were to be a change made to the game.
Tldr, archery is fine as it is. Learn mechanics. Have a backup if you miss.
I find having a set rate of hit % as a bad idea. The normal system for aim % is fine and can be used efficiently when knowing range knockback and hit stun mechanics. Also, not really related to game mechanics, logically if you kept missing shots, you would get more frustrated and nervous when being approached by a monster. I assume this would cause you to miss more, not get bonus accuracy for missing.
Secondly, having the % meter influence damage incredibly decreases dps for range. the tradeoff for the % meter is you have a lower chance to hit, but if you are lucky, you can hit multiple times at low %. on the other hand, you can miss alot if you are unlucky. Restricting the % meter to damage output would lower dps for archers who have the probability to miss. There are trade offs to charging full shots and not charging shots. I've personally hit 7+ mags at ~40% and ive missed equal or more shooting at around the same %. Missing is a part of archery but you have the ability to dish out some good dps.
Lastly, cutting archer dps by the 2nd method, having % determine archery dmg, is unfair compared to other classes. That's like me saying, well melee users should have their damage cut by how much dura is missing on their swords. You do 1k wm but since you only have 5/10 dura, you actually do 500. It can lead to many other arguments about other classes if it were to be a change made to the game.
Tldr, archery is fine as it is. Learn mechanics. Have a backup if you miss.
I personally have no problem with archery the way it is now. I do play ranged elf for some background.
I find having a set rate of hit % as a bad idea. The normal system for aim % is fine and can be used efficiently when knowing range knockback and hit stun mechanics. Also, not really related to game mechanics, logically if you kept missing shots, you would get more frustrated and nervous when being approached by a monster. I assume this would cause you to miss more, not get bonus accuracy for missing.
Secondly, having the % meter influence damage incredibly decreases dps for range. the tradeoff for the % meter is you have a lower chance to hit, but if you are lucky, you can hit multiple times at low %. on the other hand, you can miss alot if you are unlucky. Restricting the % meter to damage output would lower dps for archers who have the probability to miss. There are trade offs to charging full shots and not charging shots. I've personally hit 7+ mags at ~40% and ive missed equal or more shooting at around the same %. Missing is a part of archery but you have the ability to dish out some good dps.
Lastly, cutting archer dps by the 2nd method, having % determine archery dmg, is unfair compared to other classes. That's like me saying, well melee users should have their damage cut by how much dura is missing on their swords. You do 1k wm but since you only have 5/10 dura, you actually do 500. It can lead to many other arguments about other classes if it were to be a change made to the game.
Tldr, archery is fine as it is. Learn mechanics. Have a backup if you miss.
I find having a set rate of hit % as a bad idea. The normal system for aim % is fine and can be used efficiently when knowing range knockback and hit stun mechanics. Also, not really related to game mechanics, logically if you kept missing shots, you would get more frustrated and nervous when being approached by a monster. I assume this would cause you to miss more, not get bonus accuracy for missing.
Secondly, having the % meter influence damage incredibly decreases dps for range. the tradeoff for the % meter is you have a lower chance to hit, but if you are lucky, you can hit multiple times at low %. on the other hand, you can miss alot if you are unlucky. Restricting the % meter to damage output would lower dps for archers who have the probability to miss. There are trade offs to charging full shots and not charging shots. I've personally hit 7+ mags at ~40% and ive missed equal or more shooting at around the same %. Missing is a part of archery but you have the ability to dish out some good dps.
Lastly, cutting archer dps by the 2nd method, having % determine archery dmg, is unfair compared to other classes. That's like me saying, well melee users should have their damage cut by how much dura is missing on their swords. You do 1k wm but since you only have 5/10 dura, you actually do 500. It can lead to many other arguments about other classes if it were to be a change made to the game.
Tldr, archery is fine as it is. Learn mechanics. Have a backup if you miss.
what so called AR is more of a trap; mechanics? what? there is such thing apart from RNG? (by this i hope you are not telling me to master "how to control RNG")
And i usually dont get nervous for shooting - rather, i risk shots hopeing that aim meter helps with accuracy (which i dont feel the way it is)
the meter could be elaborated more, but well, tactics side is completely gone now (well other than trade off of missing more or stuff, which is heavily influenced by RNG at this point as well).
For an instance, 10% aim should not be 10% dmg, but rather 40-60% instead.
if you dont mind explaining "mechanics" of archery (pure aiming to shoot, which doesnt seem to require much skill), would you?
Posted at 03-04-18, 11:05 am Link | #4
If you want rng try getting chain cylinder to trigger during actual combat.
Posted at 03-04-18, 12:46 pm Link | #5
I think chain cylinder is a good example of good RNG though compared to ranged, where if the RNG fails you multiple times, all that happens to you is you kill the mobs slower because you are missing out on lots of damage. With ranged, failing your rng multiple times means getting bodied.
Posted at 03-04-18, 01:25 pm Link | #6
I personally think its extremely difficult to balance archery in a way that its less frustrating to hit something reliable without massivly screwing up game balance.
If you can't hande the way archery works in the game you might have to consider picking up another skillset instead. Since I highly doubt there will be any skill changes in general.
If you can't hande the way archery works in the game you might have to consider picking up another skillset instead. Since I highly doubt there will be any skill changes in general.
Posted at 03-04-18, 04:58 pm Link | #7
Dota 2's RNG system is really good, but mostly works because of the frequency of attacks. I'm not sure it'd work quite as well in Mabi as it would take a lot of balancing and fiddling to work correctly. It's an entirely different combat system after all.
Maybe something like what Excelsian mentioned could work. A ranged "miss" could simply do 1 damage but stun the enemy as a normal attack would, so you can follow up more safely. Your DPS is effectively the same as actually missing, but you don't immediately get bodied for it as well.
Either way, I don't think it's quite as bad as it is on live since you get Nao's for free and it's less of an issue playing in a group. Would be nice if solo archery was a bit more reliable, though.
Maybe something like what Excelsian mentioned could work. A ranged "miss" could simply do 1 damage but stun the enemy as a normal attack would, so you can follow up more safely. Your DPS is effectively the same as actually missing, but you don't immediately get bodied for it as well.
Either way, I don't think it's quite as bad as it is on live since you get Nao's for free and it's less of an issue playing in a group. Would be nice if solo archery was a bit more reliable, though.
Two immediate things I can think of -
If the mob is moving, there is an instant penalty to aiming percentage cap. Instead of reducing the accuracy cap (to 84%?) on moving targets, simply apply the penalty to the current aim gauge instead. This makes it so instead of being a gigantic cut into your chance of hitting, it simply takes another second to hit a 99% chance. (Which as any archer knows, is still a substantially long time, but far more fair.)
The other, possibly more realistic option I could see, is making quivers for fine/finest arrows, and/or implementing Special Arrows which already exist, to provide direly needed accuracy but require higher quality firewoods to make. This option, at least, seems like it'd give a good bit of breathing room and also present a market opportunity for Carpentry.
If the mob is moving, there is an instant penalty to aiming percentage cap. Instead of reducing the accuracy cap (to 84%?) on moving targets, simply apply the penalty to the current aim gauge instead. This makes it so instead of being a gigantic cut into your chance of hitting, it simply takes another second to hit a 99% chance. (Which as any archer knows, is still a substantially long time, but far more fair.)
The other, possibly more realistic option I could see, is making quivers for fine/finest arrows, and/or implementing Special Arrows which already exist, to provide direly needed accuracy but require higher quality firewoods to make. This option, at least, seems like it'd give a good bit of breathing room and also present a market opportunity for Carpentry.
Posted at 03-04-18, 05:24 pm Link | #9
The other, possibly more realistic option I could see, is making quivers for fine/finest arrows, and/or implementing Special Arrows which already exist, to provide direly needed accuracy but require higher quality firewoods to make. This option, at least, seems like it'd give a good bit of breathing room and also present a market opportunity for Carpentry.
I completely forgot about those arrow types. I like this idea.
Posted at 03-05-18, 07:48 pm Link | #10
Bigger ammo stacks for craftable ammo should bave been implemented long ago tbh
post rev. 3 by LoliPirate on 03-07-18, 11:25 am
Posted at 03-07-18, 09:02 am Link | #11
The problem with archery comes from the fact you have to wait to increase your chances of hitting anything, unlike any of the other skills, and this waiting period can be extremely negatively effected by both latency and game lag.
Personally I think the aiming percentage thing should be removed and replaced with something else. Just adding special arrows that make your chances of hitting slightly better is only bandaging a wound without actually healing it and doesn't fix the problem with archery: you can miss and there's nothing you can do about it. Thinking it over I think the best way to do it would be to replace the aiming mechanic with a sort of draw mechanic where the longer you hold an attack the the closer you will do your max damage and the higher the chances of hitting a critical or knocking back a target are, and the shorter you hold the closer to min damage you do and less or even no chances you have of doing a critical or knock back. This way if you need to get off a quick few shots, say an enemy is rushing towards you, you still have a way to hit it without relaying on other non-archery skills, but at the same time in order to do any real damage or pin down tougher enemies or bosses you have to charge up your attack, just now whether or not you are even going to hit isn't up to how much the gods hate you that day.
In saying all of that I know doing any sort of significant changes is difficult to do, so the possibility of any of these changes being added is very slim, but I would like if it could at least be looked into. I'm really enjoying this game, it being the first time I've played it (as of 17 days ago) and I'd hate to end up just giving up on the game because of a single mechanic that adds nothing but unneeded frustration to I class that I like to play as.
Agreed, also kind of annoying how you can't re-stack the item shop bolts but you can the arrows.
Personally I think the aiming percentage thing should be removed and replaced with something else. Just adding special arrows that make your chances of hitting slightly better is only bandaging a wound without actually healing it and doesn't fix the problem with archery: you can miss and there's nothing you can do about it. Thinking it over I think the best way to do it would be to replace the aiming mechanic with a sort of draw mechanic where the longer you hold an attack the the closer you will do your max damage and the higher the chances of hitting a critical or knocking back a target are, and the shorter you hold the closer to min damage you do and less or even no chances you have of doing a critical or knock back. This way if you need to get off a quick few shots, say an enemy is rushing towards you, you still have a way to hit it without relaying on other non-archery skills, but at the same time in order to do any real damage or pin down tougher enemies or bosses you have to charge up your attack, just now whether or not you are even going to hit isn't up to how much the gods hate you that day.
In saying all of that I know doing any sort of significant changes is difficult to do, so the possibility of any of these changes being added is very slim, but I would like if it could at least be looked into. I'm really enjoying this game, it being the first time I've played it (as of 17 days ago) and I'd hate to end up just giving up on the game because of a single mechanic that adds nothing but unneeded frustration to I class that I like to play as.
Bigger ammo stacks for craftable ammo should bave been implemented long ago tbh
Posted at 03-08-18, 05:32 pm Link | #12
It's unfortunately a win-lose sort of thing to remove the hit/miss system entirely because it opens the door to just magnum-pinning things into corners. If weaker charge-percentage hits have little to no knockback, that pretty much turns it into a super-powered Support Shot.
I know adding the better accuracy arrows (and/or changing/removing that damnedable moving-enemy penalty) might seem like a simple bandaid, but if you consider that moving enemies give a whopping 16% chance to miss, it means a *1/6* chance you miss and potentially eat a death. Fine Arrows reduce that to 11% and Special Arrows to 6%, so having those in quiver form would make a world of difference.
Likewise, if they removed the aiming penalty (or changed it to reduce aimspeed or somesuch), you'd be seeing up to a 26% accuracy difference with Special Arrows.
I know adding the better accuracy arrows (and/or changing/removing that damnedable moving-enemy penalty) might seem like a simple bandaid, but if you consider that moving enemies give a whopping 16% chance to miss, it means a *1/6* chance you miss and potentially eat a death. Fine Arrows reduce that to 11% and Special Arrows to 6%, so having those in quiver form would make a world of difference.
Likewise, if they removed the aiming penalty (or changed it to reduce aimspeed or somesuch), you'd be seeing up to a 26% accuracy difference with Special Arrows.
Posted at 03-08-18, 08:04 pm Link | #13
I personally have no problem with archery the way it is now. I do play ranged elf for some background.
I find having a set rate of hit % as a bad idea. The normal system for aim % is fine and can be used efficiently when knowing range knockback and hit stun mechanics. Also, not really related to game mechanics, logically if you kept missing shots, you would get more frustrated and nervous when being approached by a monster. I assume this would cause you to miss more, not get bonus accuracy for missing.
Secondly, having the % meter influence damage incredibly decreases dps for range. the tradeoff for the % meter is you have a lower chance to hit, but if you are lucky, you can hit multiple times at low %. on the other hand, you can miss alot if you are unlucky. Restricting the % meter to damage output would lower dps for archers who have the probability to miss. There are trade offs to charging full shots and not charging shots. I've personally hit 7+ mags at ~40% and ive missed equal or more shooting at around the same %. Missing is a part of archery but you have the ability to dish out some good dps.
Lastly, cutting archer dps by the 2nd method, having % determine archery dmg, is unfair compared to other classes. That's like me saying, well melee users should have their damage cut by how much dura is missing on their swords. You do 1k wm but since you only have 5/10 dura, you actually do 500. It can lead to many other arguments about other classes if it were to be a change made to the game.
Tldr, archery is fine as it is. Learn mechanics. Have a backup if you miss.
I find having a set rate of hit % as a bad idea. The normal system for aim % is fine and can be used efficiently when knowing range knockback and hit stun mechanics. Also, not really related to game mechanics, logically if you kept missing shots, you would get more frustrated and nervous when being approached by a monster. I assume this would cause you to miss more, not get bonus accuracy for missing.
Secondly, having the % meter influence damage incredibly decreases dps for range. the tradeoff for the % meter is you have a lower chance to hit, but if you are lucky, you can hit multiple times at low %. on the other hand, you can miss alot if you are unlucky. Restricting the % meter to damage output would lower dps for archers who have the probability to miss. There are trade offs to charging full shots and not charging shots. I've personally hit 7+ mags at ~40% and ive missed equal or more shooting at around the same %. Missing is a part of archery but you have the ability to dish out some good dps.
Lastly, cutting archer dps by the 2nd method, having % determine archery dmg, is unfair compared to other classes. That's like me saying, well melee users should have their damage cut by how much dura is missing on their swords. You do 1k wm but since you only have 5/10 dura, you actually do 500. It can lead to many other arguments about other classes if it were to be a change made to the game.
Tldr, archery is fine as it is. Learn mechanics. Have a backup if you miss.
You someone i rather learn how to use archery efficiently its tough. lol
Posted at 03-08-18, 09:00 pm Link | #14
Thinking over it again my idea isn't all that great and lots of changes would need to be made to make something like that work.
I just think there needs to be more more ways to improve your accuracy then just adding some better accuracy arrows.
I just think there needs to be more more ways to improve your accuracy then just adding some better accuracy arrows.
Posted at 03-09-18, 03:32 am Link | #15
It's why I hated the archery system in Mabinogi, it's extremely flawed especially due to the latency where you get screwed often due to missing multiple times in the row and it's also why I refuse to do archery even though the elves have 'benefits' with the archery.
It's why I would like to see some changes being made to the archery so it is not as frustrating for many users to use ranged with but it is hard to try and revamp archery without making it extremely broken and/or overpowered so...
It's why I would like to see some changes being made to the archery so it is not as frustrating for many users to use ranged with but it is hard to try and revamp archery without making it extremely broken and/or overpowered so...
Posted at 03-24-18, 08:08 am Link | #16
It's why I hated the archery system in Mabinogi, it's extremely flawed especially due to the latency where you get screwed often due to missing multiple times in the row and it's also why I refuse to do archery even though the elves have 'benefits' with the archery.
It's why I would like to see some changes being made to the archery so it is not as frustrating for many users to use ranged with but it is hard to try and revamp archery without making it extremely broken and/or overpowered so...
It's why I would like to see some changes being made to the archery so it is not as frustrating for many users to use ranged with but it is hard to try and revamp archery without making it extremely broken and/or overpowered so...
You are correct sir lol
While I was creating my own anime MMORPG, I i looked into mabi for some inspiratio (archery wise . my melee, magic and alchemy mechanic are don and far less rock,paper scicssorszx). Only to realize there a lot of fundamentally flawed design choices...Archery being the biggest imo.
If hit rate is buffed reliably, it will destroy every skill-set due to its range, speed and power. Leave it like it is, it frusrates some players from constantly missing. Its a lose / lose
You may wonder, how would archery be balanced then? well...Thats a few easy variables this game cannot due serious developer power required. So in exchange for bow reliability, melee defenses should be improved itself. That way bows can win from a distance without it being broken yet you still have to pvp your target mid range. How you guys choose to create that skill isup to you as a community, because all my ideas are going to my game lol
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